Caves that don't flood in Yorkshire

[paul]

And on the subject of West Kingsdale, how wet does it have to be before Bull Pot becomes dodgy (excluding last pitch!)

It's the pitch before the last one you have to watch - at least you can take the alternative "Slot" variation. Several years ago on a trip in Bull Pot with others, I was first to exit the pot with the rest of the party I was with following on the way out as I hadn't bothered descnding the final pitch. It had been a dry day and no rain was forecast (Bull Pot is a sink after all...) and so the possilby wet third pitch had been rigged instead of the "Slot" alternative thrid pitch.

As I was walking down to the road to get changed, there was a very heavy hail shower turning the ground white in a few minutes to a depth of several centimetres. As the temperature was mild, the hail soon all melted. Unfortunately all the sudden melt water changed the previously dry third pitch in Bull Pot into a waterfall.

One of the remaining party managed to get up the pitch and keep out of most of the water along with a second caver. Then the third caver also tried but slipped into the full force of the water and afterwards said got so cold so quickly he had no idea which direction was out of the water.

The cavers above quickly rigged the "Slot" with the rope from the bottom pitch and together with the remainder of the party assisted the thrid caver off the wet pitch and all left via the "Slot".

A very lucky escape for that third caver who was verging on severe hypothermia.

 

[langcliffe]

It's the pitch before the last one you have to watch - at least you can take the alternative "Slot" variation. Several years ago on a trip in Bull Pot with others, I was first to exit the pot with the rest of the party I was with following on the way out as I hadn't bothered descnding the final pitch. It had been a dry day and no rain was forecast (Bull Pot is a sink after all...) and so the possilby wet third pitch had been rigged instead of the "Slot" alternative thrid pitch.

There are five pitches in Bull Pot, and you're describing the third one, Paul, rather than the penultimate. I suspect that very few people rig the wet variation - most go down the slot.

 

[Fulk]

paul's story is scary ? not just the fact that the cave flooded (it is a stream sink, after all) but the time-span involved. Reading between the lines, it would appear that the cave flooded very quickly indeed after the hail fell ? would it be possible to give any sort of time span on this, paul?

 

[damian]

Personally I have a strong dislike of prusiking up a river, and find the Aquamole entrance pitch to be far too drippy in very wet weather to have managed to find out how the last pitch is affected in such a circumstance. I suspect you're right, though, that if you don't mind getting sodden, you can make it to the bottom in fairly wet weather.

As for Bull Pot, Kingsdale, I've never failed to make it to the top of the 4th pitch and by rebelaying at both deviations have managed to get down the 4th pitch alive in fairly we weather (to rescue someone stranded below).

 

[paul]

paul's story is scary – not just the fact that the cave flooded (it is a stream sink, after all) but the time-span involved. Reading between the lines, it would appear that the cave flooded very quickly indeed after the hail fell – would it be possible to give any sort of time span on this, paul?

It's difficult to judge exactly as those underground saw the water without knowing about the hail storm while I was on the surface and knew about the hail but didn't see the water underground.

As the hail melted very quickly I would imagine the water in the cave rose in a very short time. The problem was that a great deal of hail fell in a short period of time and then very quickly melted so it was probably the same effect as a sudden very heavy rain shower.

Yes, Langcliffe is correct - it was the third pitch. And I always use the "Slot" alternative whatever the weather now!

 

[gus horsley]

I'd second (third?) Pikedaw.  It's not exactly sporting but it's quite atmospheric in a strange sort of way and there's quite a lot in there.

 

[TheBitterEnd]

Genuinely laughing out loud    Sorry can't resist summing this up

Welcome to the Yorkshire Dales, Britain's premier caving area. Please come and spend some of your hard earned brass in the struggling local businesses, preferably one of the caving emporia. We have at least one cave you can visit without drowning or being shot by a Game Keeper. But please remember:

• if there is anything more than a heavy dew go to Pikedaw.
  [*] heed the advice that nothing in West Kingsdale is a doable under average1 June2 conditions and go back to Pikedaw
  [*]if you do manage to beat your way through the floods into Kingsdale, you should be able to do 3 or 4 pitches of Bull Pot3, with Rowten and possibly Aquamole to round out the day
  [*]Also consider bottoming King Pot as a good all weather little bimble4
  

Puts me in mind of something someone said of usenet5 (and these days it applies equally well to Web forums)

"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhoea ? massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."


Alternatively you could use a bit of common, have a look at how much water is disappearing down the hole and decide whether swinging about in the waterfall would be more or less refreshing than tea and cake at Bernie's  :blink:


[list type=decimal]
[*][size=8pt]Average conditions is normally the gentle pitter-patter of lemming like sheep falling down the shake holes
[*][size=8pt]Of course no one ever does these caves between November and April
[*][size=8pt]Hang on, I thought is wasn't doable - better go to Pikedaw
[*][size=8pt]Failing that, go up Leck Fell, in the closed season, without a permit and do Lost Johns, wear your brightest yellow suit just to avoid being spotted...
[*][size=8pt]Usenet is something we used to use before you whippersnappers came along with your new fangled web thing
[/list]

 

[Blakethwaite]

Genuinely laughing out loud    Sorry can't resist summing this up

Welcome to the Yorkshire Dales, Britain's premier caving area. Please come and spend some of your hard earned brass in the struggling local businesses, preferably one of the caving emporia. We have at least one cave you can visit without drowning or being shot by a Game Keeper. But please remember:

• if there is anything more than a heavy dew go to Pikedaw.
  [*] heed the advice that nothing in West Kingsdale is a doable under average1 June2 conditions and go back to Pikedaw
  [*]if you do manage to beat your way through the floods into Kingsdale, you should be able to do 3 or 4 pitches of Bull Pot3, with Rowten and possibly Aquamole to round out the day
  [*]Also consider bottoming King Pot as a good all weather little bimble4
  

Puts me in mind of something someone said of usenet5 (and these days it applies equally well to Web forums)

"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhoea ? massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."


Alternatively you could use a bit of common, have a look at how much water is disappearing down the hole and decide whether swinging about in the waterfall would be more or less refreshing than tea and cake at Bernie's  :blink:


[list type=decimal]
[*][size=8pt]Average conditions is normally the gentle pitter-patter of lemming like sheep falling down the shake holes
[*][size=8pt]Of course no one ever does these caves between November and April
[*][size=8pt]Hang on, I thought is wasn't doable - better go to Pikedaw
[*][size=8pt]Failing that, go up Leck Fell, in the closed season, without a permit and do Lost Johns, wear your brightest yellow suit just to avoid being spotted...
[*][size=8pt]Usenet is something we used to use before you whippersnappers came along with your new fangled web thing
[/list]

Absolutely, all entirely true.

Particularly if you know the area and are are familiar with local conditions but perhaps an element of doubt can creep in if you're from outside the area & don't know local conditions so well?

 

[paul]

Alternatively you could use a bit of common, have a look at how much water is disappearing down the hole and decide whether swinging about in the waterfall would be more or less refreshing than tea and cake at Bernie's  :blink:

Absolutely, all entirely true.

Particularly if you know the area and are are familiar with local conditions but perhaps an element of doubt can creep in if you're from outside the area & don't know local conditions so well?

I think you both misunderstood the original question "With all the rain pouring down recently and set to continue at least to the end of the month which caves can I safely go to (including SRT pots) in Yorkshire without worrying if it's going to flood and that I can still get out even if it rains profusely for 24/7?"

On many occasions I have sat in Bernies in the morning looking at the rain slashing down outside and knowing the trip we had originally planned for that day would just be too dodgy with the current conditions with becks and streams rising and no sign of a break in the rain.

So, rather than faff about trying to decide what to do when you already KNOW it's too wet to do certain caves, it's useful to have a "Plan B" and at least get a trip underground rather than sit around moping about the lousy weather...

 

[dunc]

Having just had a look at the OPs profile the location is classed as London, if I was travelling all that way for a weekend of caving and the weather was atrocious then I'd actually want to do something without fear of drowning rather than sitting in some establishment drowning myself in cups of tea.

For the likes of TBE who probably live closer and know the area well, then yes there are certain caves/pots that are probably ok given the right conditions. I've been to places in wet weather that I probably wouldn't suggest on here as "suitable when wet", knowing the cave, recent weather, forecasted weather, parties ability etc all make a huge difference when choosing a trip in the wet.

 

[TheBitterEnd]

It just felt like we needed to get beyond the sharp intakes of breath and mumbling of ?local caves for local people? and come up with a better stock response for ?on the day alternatives? and it seems we are getting there. (I had assumed that Mistral, Link and Pip where covered by a permit).

Below is a round up of contributions from Dunc and Damian (and probably others) ? remembering that for most you need to ask at the relevant farm on the day:

Mistral
Link Pot (not Serendipity)
Pippikin
Cherry Tree Hole (downstream to top of pitch)
Boggarts or Trapdoor if you fancy a bigger/harder trip
Pikedaw
Large Pot (as far as Colossus)
SRT / Ladder & line Practice in Bull Pot of the Witches
Sell Gill Holes dry route

It would be nice if more in the CNCC rigging guide made it on to the list as that is probably the most accessible guide book at the moment. It must also be possible to apply a bit of science (prepare for impressions of people sucking lemon flavoured wasps1 ) and provide a bit of guidance to the effect that things like Rowten, Aquamole, Ireby, Marble Steps are possible in rainfall, it all depends how much (e.g. if the met office rainfall radar is showing blue or green then they are likely to be OK2,3,4, check quantity coming out of the the rising etc. etc.).


1) to quote Cap?n Chris

2) With a liberal dose of common sense
3) Slippery when wet
4) Caveat emptor

 

[Fulk]

What about Jingling Hole?

 

[Lu]

It would be interesting to know...

Jingling Pot looks doable even in very rainy weather as the water will pour down to the very bottom and you can stop at whichever pitch and go back up if needed.

Bur I have only done Jingling Pot in absolute dry water days and have no idea which side does the water go in stronger if pouring down.....if it goes down like a waterfall right at the top tree where you rigged I don't suppose it would be very nice coming up...same thing for the lateral rigging...anyone done Jingling in very wet weather?

 

[Robert Scott]

Rift Pot, Allotment - permit needed from the Estate

 

[dunc]

Jingling Pot looks doable even in very rainy weather as the water will pour down to the very bottom and you can stop at whichever pitch and go back up if needed.

Don't think I've done it in very wet weather just wet (down Lateral) and it was fine.

There are some anchors on the other side which allow a decent or traverse to the Lateral route - not done either nor do I know how they are affected in very wet weather. There's a rigging topo, with information, on the cncc website.

 

[Pete Brookdale]

that reminds me of a tale of two cavers down Gavel and not being able to bottom it due to going down last pitch up to neck in water with no sign of the floor! lol although to be fair they did touch the sump or infact were in it! your best bet is to ask in inglesport on the day and you will more than likely find a suitable trip to do.