Caving and mental health

[ttxela]

I don't claim to be an expert (in caving or mental health!) however I am very close to someone who suffers from depression and anxiety.

Although she doesn't enjoy caving there are other outdoor activities she enjoys, whilst I agree that this should be no bar on going I would say it has some bearing on the arrangements and considerations when planning a trip. In my experience on a good day it will not be an issue however on a bad day you may need to be more prepared than normal to scrub the trip or cut it short.

Also in a previous life when I ran a shooting club I was asked to teach a lad with learning difficulties to shoot, whilst I readily agreed and there were no real issues either around safety or ability we effectively had to start from scratch each week which I think both of us found frustrating and after a few sessions the lad stopped coming.

So with more severe issues I would perhaps say that you may need to consider your own patience and temperament however well intentioned you may be - and also perhaps be realistic about what can be achieved?

 

[Duncan Price]

I have been treated for clinical depression on more that one occasion.  At its worst, I could hardly function and going underground was not on the agenda despite the advice that "a bit of exercise would be good for you".  I've made myself go [cave diving] when not quite as bad - I was safe but didn't enjoy it  [remarks about cave divers being "suicidal" really hits a raw nerve for me - I might have wanted to kill myself on occasion but I do not want to die in a cave, quite the opposite as I have felt most "alive" when potholing underwater].  In fact I knew that I had come through one episode when I was sufficiently motivated to go out and do a solo trip to a site I had never been to.

Like a lot of people, I find that regular participation in all aspects of speleology is a good way of keeping my spirits up in general and keeping the Black Dog at bay in particular.

There is a stigma attached to depression - it is very common though and nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[Ian Adams]

As it has already been mooted by Robert Scott, depression and anxiety are quite different.

I guess you are asking to gauge a response from a spectrum and I guess each individual response is of interest to you in that regard ?

I also guess that you are looking for pre-conceived ideas as to whether caving might act as a catalyst in either case as well whether (we) cavers  pre-conceive thoughts as to whether depression or anxiety affect the decision to take some one along.

I also guess everyone is answering with their own thoughts and opinions ?.

(A lot of guessing)

To specifically answer your question then ?

If I were asked in the scenario you outlined I would not consider either depression or anxiety as a negative factor nor would I likely make any allowance/adjustment either.

For me, the prevailing important point is that I am being asked by the ?sufferer? who, whilst asking, was (as I see it) asking to do something they wanted to do. Neither of the conditions  per se you outlined  inhibit  them (in my eyes)

If anxiety became an issue whilst underground then I would deal with it then (how many times have we been with someone who got the wobbles?)

Another question I always ask myself is ?how far should we each go to protect others from their own stupidity??  I don?t mean that in a derogatory sense, I mean it in the sense that we all, as individuals, have the right to make choices and decisions ? at what point do ?you? become a police officer and deny someone their lawful choice just because ?you? don?t agree ?

I guess there is no real answer that that (another guess)?



Ian

 

[droid]

Be aware Ian, that short term anxiety/panic attacks are a different animal to a long-term anxiety state.

Long-term anxiety states can and do lead to depression. The transition is difficult to discern even for the sufferer.

 

[Ian Adams]

Droid,

Can you elaborate on how anxiety can become depression ? (because I don't know)

Also, can you conjecture on how an anxiety can become a panic attack (same reason) ?



Ian

 

[droid]

A panic attack is (to me) acute anxiety.

I guess everyone has things that make them anxious in the short term: exams, job interviews and the like, but suffering anxiety permanently, in a diffuse way, is rather different. It can be focussed on a certain situation: job troubles, relationship problems, health etc but not neccessarily. The transition from anxiety state to depression is vague. Doctors sometimes classify mild depression as an anxiety state. And depression itself takes on many guises, even in the same individual.

Talk to people that suffer these conditions. There are more of us than you may realise.

 

[Ian Adams]

I have no medical training but your explanation has all the hallmarks of being logically correct - certainly, I can see that acute anxiety could trigger a panic attack.

I am still struggling to see how depression could be classed as anxiety but, there again, I am not a doctor and have no issue with it.

Still sticking with Gus's original question - I  still wouldn't allow either case to prejudice the decision to take such a person underground.

I also think that, by asking, the person is suggesting (by implication) that they do not believe going underground is going to heighten their anxiety (regardless of whether that proves to be right or wrong).

Thank you for the explanation 

Ian

 

[droid]

Trouble is, Ian, depression or anxiety states are very personal. Each person suffers differently. It is rather like Autism: now referred to as Autistic Spectrum Disorder.

Think of it as a Spectrum and you won't gio far wrong.

As for going underground with it, some of the most active/talented underground people I know suffer the condition.

 

[nearlywhite]

I recommend reading about generalised anxiety disorder Ian, it's not hard to see how you can develop or more accurately classify as being depressed.

I suppose the OP had the situation of you being told by someone other than the person with the mental health illness. What it all comes down to is are they a danger to themselves or others? And who has to make that call? As most people on here won't be qualified to make that assessment, you've got to trust other people's judgement. As one of my friends put it 'I find it hard to trust people I've not been underground with'. You see another side to people, one that's a bit more real, health difficulties aside.

I've stopped perfectly fit and healthy people going on trips I didn't think they could handle it, I think most cavers are fairly understanding about the issue

 

[2xw]

I'm actually going for an interview today for a support worker role for people with learning difficulties. I think caving or just walking in the countryside would help them. I know I feel less stressed when up the Peak than at home.

Not just from a calmness point of view, but also from a sensory perspective. Drips of water, echoes, lights playing around, waterfalls, sounds of gurgling water a cool draft, all feel great. Especially great for ASD etc. Thoroughly recommend you take them caving. White Scar show cave are very accommodating and reasonably wheelchair accessible (as long as you don't have those wheelchairs with mountain bike tires), and if they're a bit more ambulant there's loads in the peak. 

In response to original question, I'd feel comfortable with taking someone with any number of mental health issues underground (with depression and GAD related stuff probably a total non-issue in that respect).

I'd probably consider the cave itself the limiting factor, rather than the mental health issue. Would I take a person who has ADHD down the 3 counties system? No, I'd take them up Great Douk in lowish water. With so much great caving in the UK I think the trip can be tailored to a the person rather than the person suited to the cave.

 

[Ian Adams]

Ross,

Thanks for your explanation and the suggestion ? I know you are in the medical profession and obviously have a greater insight.

I think we (all) might be moving away from (or too deep into) the OPs original question ?

To follow your line and Droids line ? how far should a caver go in making an assessment of their caving compatriots ?  Do you take a cursory view? Ask a few questions? Ask others for their thoughts? Ask for a detailed questionnaire? Or leave it to someone else ?  (Both the extremes and some in-betweens).

You have raised another issue and that is the safety of others which has not been addressed in any detail by any other postees.  Of course, I think we (probably) all consider our own safety in the presence of ?others? (ie. are any of the others going to put ?you? in danger) and we make a judgement call on our abilities and tolerance to that potential issue.

Possibly we also consider whether a party member might be a danger to other party members but I don?t know if there is any line in the sand that can be used as a marker.

Should we feel it incumbent on ourselves to police this ?  Should this be in the hands of the ?leader? (if there is one) ?  Should you intervene if you believe the ?leader? is in error ?  etc. etc.

How far does your own ?thought process? have to go before you decide to arbitrarily prevent someone from participating on the same trip ?

I think it is a tough question and I think we probably each have many different views.

I also don?t think we should lose sight of the fact that this is a recreational activity and we are not bound by the same rules commercial ventures are.

Still, regardless of ?depression? or ?anxiety?, I would still discount both if asked by a sufferer to take them on a trip for the reasons I have already outlined and would be happy to take them unless there was a patent reason not to (and have done so).



Ian

 

[2xw]

I'll remember to get my DClinPsych before taking anyone on a trip.
If it doesn't affect the trip, it's non of our business to be informed. Especially, as you say, is recreation and not bound by commercial obligations.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I would treat everyone in much the same way - as another caver, unless there was a compelling reason to do otherwise, and only if someone better qualified than me or the person themselves suggested it.

 

[royfellows]

I wasn't really going to post anything here but now feel I aught.
I think if a person freely admits that they have a problem then they are half way towards solving it. The experience of going underground in my opinion can be very therapeutic, taking a persons mind off personal problems etc.
The person to beware of is the person who has a problem but cannot see this.
I am unfortunately talking from personal experience.

Case in mind a person who for some reason if given an instruction, even something safety related, has an irresistible compulsion to do exactly the opposite or something different.

Just be careful.

 

[bagpuss]

Wouldn't have a problem taking someone, I guess as with any disability you might ask how it effects them and judge which cave you'd begin with based on that. People have different triggers for their anxiety and it may come in handy to know what they are.

For me personally I am probably least socially anxious when caving, it's much easier for me than going to the pub or a gig (I still get the fear in the Hunters!). I think it also helps caving with a good group of understanding people who are patient whatever people's issues are. If I'm really low I simply don't go caving, if I do manage to go it makes me feel much better.

 

[droid]

Just to put some perspective on this: I've been on mine trips where out of the 6 participents, 3 were on medication for depression/anxiety.

It was one of the most entertaining, funny and outrageous trips ever. 

 

[nearlywhite]

I would treat everyone in much the same way - as another caver, unless there was a compelling reason to do otherwise, and only if someone better qualified than me or the person themselves suggested it.

Nail on the had, and my answer to your questions Ian, thanks Peter!(although I'd drop the only). I suspect we're all singing from the same hymn sheet here.

As for making assessments... We often take someone we don't know on a trial trip or ask for a caving reference from a mutual friend. It depends on the seriousness of the trip. We already police this when we see it, I've stopped 2 trips from going ahead and had the same happen to me. You don't stick your oar in without good reason. It comes from a good place and stops unnecessary rescues.

I can see how this is a pre judicial process, and underlying attitudes undoubtedly influence these decisions, however I suspect that being too fat/too thin/too tall etc makes the big impact. Because mental health is often invisible it is often ignored, sometimes to someone's benefit. The research is going to have to dig deeper to find those prejudices, they're not going to come out now that they don't seem to be in line with the caving chattering classes. I hope I haven't derailed the topic... perhaps a guiding post by the OP is in order?

 

[pwhole]

This may be of interest as an update to this thread:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/20/psychedelics-depression-treatment-psychiatry-psilocybin

 

[Graigwen]

This may be of interest as an update to this thread:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/20/psychedelics-depression-treatment-psychiatry-psilocybin

My daughter is currently doing a Masters in Neuroscience and Psychology and shares some of her study material with me. One consistent feature is that many drugs humans put into themselves, whether recreational or medicinal, have bad effects. On the whole recent research suggests psychedelic drugs do less harm, and psilocybin in particular seems to have positive rather then negative effects. I found this a surprise, but no doubt it will be welcomed by the cavers of New Inn near Pontypool.

.

 

[tamarmole]

This may be of interest as an update to this thread:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/20/psychedelics-depression-treatment-psychiatry-psilocybin

My daughter is currently doing a Masters in Neuroscience and Psychology and shares some of her study material with me. One consistent feature is that many drugs humans put into themselves, whether recreational or medicinal, have bad effects. On the whole recent research suggests psychedelic drugs do less harm, and psilocybin in particular seems to have positive rather then negative effects. I found this a surprise, but no doubt it will be welcomed by the cavers of New Inn near Pontypool.

.

Problem with psychedelics such as psilocybyn is that you are rewiring your brain without a wiring diagram.