caving clubs insurance

[Sewer Rat]

How does insurance work with clubs ect.
I know i had seen some posts on here a few weeks ago
but since the turkish invasion i think the posts have gone .
Either that or i wasnt looking hard enough.
This is what i think but I could be wrong ...It has happened in the past.

A club gets insurance via or with BCA this takes up part of the membership subscription for that club.

This covers you for what exactly?
If I wanted extra insurance to cover me if i have a bad accident and i have time off or medical expences how would i go about it or would anybody insure me as caving is an EXTREME sport.

 

[darkplaces]

ooo has someone else found out how pointless the BCA insurence is?

Do we really need to be in a situation were cavers need two sets of insurence.

Doing a google search doesnt show much.

 

[cap n chris]

PL insurance via BCA for clubs is relatively complex but since it is administered by volunteers and it's all we've effectively got we should go with it and support it.

There are four basic types of insurance: CIM caver, CIM non-caver, DIM caver and DIM non-caver; if you're into diving, explosives or controlling access there are other degrees of complexity. DIM cover, which I prefer for the ease of administration (you get it yourself and the club doesn't have the hassle of faffing around with paperwork) costs more but you also get the annual BCA handbook, newsletters and a magazine. CIM = club individual member, DIM = direct individual member.

The rate you pay for the cover under each heading is dependent upon the time of year when you join since the premium is pro rata. Respectively, 1 Jan to 31 March, 1 April to 30 June, 1 July to 30 Sept, 1 Oct to 31 Dec: £18, £13.50, £9, £4.50; £6, £4.50, £3, £1.50; £33, £26, £19, £12; £21, £17, £13, £9. All club members must be insured for the club and its officers to be insured.

If you join through a club (CIM), the club has to calculate its total number of insured members and then pay an extra fee accordingly when the number of members jumps from 4 to 10, 11 to 20, 21 to 30, 31 to 40 and 41 to unlimited. Respectively £20, £30, £40, £45, £50 minus previous payment acting as part-payment of total due. If the club has a hut there's another £100 per year on top and if the club controls access there's another £100 per year on top again.

On receipt of the premium an acknowledgement is sent to the club with a list of those who have paid, pending receipt of the BCA insurance cards (green plastic "credit"-card); unfortunately it can take over 7 months for these to arrive meanwhile it is necessary for clubs to provide suppporting paperwork for anyone requiring proof of insurance cover. It would be nice to have a website where any caver who claims to be insured can type in their name (or someone can do this to check them out) into a website and for a green light saying "Yes, they're insured" to flash; this, or something similar, would be useful in the interim while waiting for the "credit"-cards... or even as a complete alternative.

As new members join a club it is necessary to fill in a form either by computer via a spreadsheet or by paper, updating the total membership of the club.

This is my understanding and may not be how other club administrators find the process. Also as an onerous process it is one I wish to avoid, strongly promoting instead the DIM process instead of the CIM for the ease of the paperchase for club administrators. BCA would probably prefer this too since they reap a greater premium as a result.

The cover provides Public Liability cover for up to £2million for all caving activities; i.e. you fall over and break your arm on a farmer's dry stone wall and he gets the wall fixed courtesy your insurance.

If I wanted extra insurance to cover me if i have a bad accident and i have time off or medical expences how would i go about it or would anybody insure me as caving is an EXTREME sport.

Having looked into this myself many years ago may I suggest you do the same and see what response you get. When I rang a broker he came back to me and said I could get private insurance cover providing me with an income of £200 per week (for a maximum of two weeks = £400) to cover for lost wages but that the premium was £500 per year. BTW I understand that if you've got a mortgage you probably can't go caving "regularly". I think this is why caving is considered "extreme" - it's extremely unlikely you'll find anyone to insure you.

 

[darkplaces]

Better then giving the insurence people the money put some money away in an ISA or some high interest account and regually put money in. If the worst happens you will have millions as apart from the odd occurance nothing major will happen unless your really unlucky.

At least when you stop caving (when your old and knakered) you can take the money out and spend it on stanner stair lifts as your knees will be knakered from your caving days!

So caving is an extream sport eh, so (as sad as it is) how many people die directly as a result of caving compared to how many people are killed by pets?

 

[cap n chris]

how many people die directly as a result of caving compared to how many people are killed by pets?

How many pets die directly as a result of caving?

 

[graham]

I admit to not reading all through Chris's post , but there is much muddled thinking in the rest of this thread:

Essentially, as far as caving is concerned there are two types of insurance:

Accident and rescue

and Third Party (aka Public Liability).

The former covers you if you damage yourself and either need rescuing (in a country where this does not come free) or time off work etc. etc. This is up to you, it is your risk & only you (& your family) suffer if you don't have it.

The latter covers everyone else who might lose out if you damage them or their property. Although there have been very few cases in the UK (two that I am aware of) where claims have been made against a caver in this regard, it is foolish not to carry such cover as, if you do cock up, then you could easily find yourself at the sharp end of a far larger bill than you could cover by having saved up your premiums.

The problem that UK caving has is that the premiums that we have to pay for this cover are out of all proportion to the risks to the insurance companies. Sadly they don't see it that way, having got very "risk averse" since 9/11, amongst other thinks.

However, some landowners (not as many as you might think) insist on you carrying it before letting you down their 'oles. They know you are poor and not worth suing personally if you damage their property.

Also, and in some respects more importantly, those caving organisations that administer access need it, just in case someone is injured as a result of being on property they are responsible for, using a fixed aid that they are responsible for etc. etc. In these circumstances they (me!!) could find themselves at the sharp end of a court case and even if they (I!!) win it'll cost a lot to run the thing through the courts.

This last is the one item of insurance that UK caving cannot escape from. Remember that you cannot stop someone suing you and even if the caver concerned doesn't, their mother easily could.

What we have now is the best of a bad job & we do all need to support it, to spread the load, until the time comes when we can persuade the insurance industry that we aint as bad a risk as they think & premiums can be brought down to reasonable levels again.

 

[darkplaces]

yeah and all that could be applied to any outdoor sport that crosses land...

So why is caving special when mountain biking, climbing, mountain walking, etc etc etc etc etc etc is just as extream (we are told) can be on someone elses land English nature for example and yet.. do they need insurence?

People who like you and cap 'n chris etc etc who say its normal, we should accept it, no point in moaning are just creating a society were at some point humans will need to be insured AT BIRTH to step out of ones front door for fear we might get injured or injure someone. To me this is not fantasy this is the way society is moving and anyone who thinks this insurence idea is a good idea is simply helping create such a society.

I also still hold with the idea insurence removes personal responsability as no fear exists because the insurence will pick up the bill. Maybe if people knew they would be presented with a big bill maybe they would take more care.

Sorry if I have stolen this thread but the point needs to be made over and over again.

6 bloody months to get insurence green cards - who ever organises these things is in my view incapable of doing his or her job. Dont give me crap about volunteers I'm paying for a service here and its rubbish. Please your welcome to quote me at the next CSCC meeting.

 

[cap n chris]

Darkplaces, you may find yourself changing your mind if you are being sued by the angry relatives of a mate of yours who's been accidentally injured (or worse).

Dont give me crap about volunteers I'm paying for a service here and its rubbish

This is easily proven nonsense*; you (and I and many others) are paying for insurance cover via a third party as a block purchase premium; the "service", or delivery, is provided free of charge by volunteers (if it wasn't FOC then the premium would be even greater!).

People who volunteer their efforts should be rightly praised for their selfless work helping numerous unknown beneficiaries. Voluntary workers do not take kindly to unkind, undeserved and misguided criticism - they tend to respond by saying "OK, YOU do it, I'm off".

If someone ranted on about your website/forum hosting being shabby, "crap", unprofessional etc. claiming that they're paying for the "service" via their telephone bill* you'd no doubt have something to say in response... I expect you host the Darkplaces Forum at considerable expense to yourself in time and money and would feel mightily hurt if people levelled unfounded hostile criticism towards you, misrepresenting what you are doing as a money-grubbing, commission-based commercial outfit tempting people to run up larger phone bills by providing a poor service. There are many ways of misinterpreting reality to suit your own misguided agenda; insurance is a prerequisite, not an add-on, for cavers who wish to visit many sites in private ownership.

 

[martinr]

6 bloody months to get insurence green cards - who ever organises these things is in my view incapable of doing his or her job. Dont give me crap about volunteers I'm paying for a service here and its rubbish. Please your welcome to quote me at the next CSCC meeting.

Darkplaces: if you don't like the service you are getting from BCA then may I suggest you go and buy your Public Liability Insurance somewhere else? Make sure it gives you at least 2million GBP cover and covers you for cave diving, use of explosives etc. (see http://insurance.british-caving.org.uk/04C0034_synopsis_v5.pdf for a full synopsis of cover)When you find another insurer who is prepared to offer cover, which I doubt you will, please let us all know. And, make sure it is less than 18 GBP per head.

I am not a member of BCA, but I for one am grateful for the service they provide. I don't want to restart the argument of why insurance is necessary - just go to http://insurance.british-caving.org.uk/index.htm and look at the FAQ's.

If you don't agree with insurance, why are you buying BCA insurance in the first place?

Better then giving the insurence people the money put some money away in an ISA or some high interest account and regually put money in. If the worst happens you will have millions

Please tell me: if I invest 18 GBP per year, say at 8% interest, how long would it take to reach “millions” ? I'm no mathematician, but by my calculations it would take me 122 years to accumulate 2 million at 8% return and even if BCA invested the 40000 GBP annual insurance premium it would take 20 years. What happens if someone sues me next year? Or if there is more than 1 claim over those periods?

I would be happy to cave without PLI if I could. I am a member of a long established club, based on Mendip where some landowners (e.g. National Trust, local councils) insist that we prove we have PLI before we can go onto their land. This may be to do with the tradition of digging with explosives on Mendip. We may disagree with the landowners demand that we insure him or indemnify him, but there is nothing we can do about it. If I want to cave, and the landowner insists on being indemnified, then I have to be insured. The cost is 18.00 GBP (of which I believe less than 1GBP is used for admin.). I spend more than 18 GBP on a meal and a couple of pints. If I cave twice a week for a year, it works out at 18 pence per caving trip.

If you think BCA is providing a poor service, and remember this is done at a cost of 1GBP per head (the same for a year as 1 trip down Swildons), then may I suggest you stop slagging off the volunteers who do the work and instead offer to do the admin yourself next year. Then we will see how long it takes you to produce, envelope and post 4000 little green cards.

My recollection (I am sure there are other members of this forum who can correct me if I am wrong) is that the person who was doing the admin this year was unable to continue due to personal, family, circumstances and that it took time to find another volunteer to take on the task. Nick Williams (BCA) let it be known that anyone who needed evidence of cover before their BCA card arrived could contact him and he would arrange for proof to be sent.

 

[Lincolnshire poacher]

Just read Cap'n Chris first post on this subject and have to say thanks...........at last BCA insurence explained in a way i can understand, once again thanks Cap'n Chris!.

Right am definatly interested in getting the insurence via the DIM route, who do i contact to do this?. Also if it takes 7 months for the cards to appear, how do i prove that i am covered??.

 

[kay]

Darkplaces: if you don't like the service you are getting from BCA then may I suggest you go and buy your Public Liability Insurance somewhere else?

Better still, get yourself down to BCA and offer to help out.

 

[martinr]

Right am definatly interested in getting the insurence via the DIM route, who do i contact to do this?. Also if it takes 7 months for the cards to appear, how do i prove that i am covered??.

Go to http://www.british-caving.org.uk/bca/insurance/05C0118_DIM_v5.pdf and download an application form

I believe rates are pro-rata if you join part way through a year, but check with BCA

The delay with membership cards has been resolved, so you should receive proof quickly. If you need proof before your card arrives, email BCA

 

[cap n chris]

Lincolnshire Poacher, the DIM pro-rata premium for the remainder of 2005 is £19. Get the form (PDF or Word) and it's peasy-pimps.

 

[graham]

yeah and all that could be applied to any outdoor sport that crosses land...

So why is caving special when mountain biking, climbing, mountain walking, etc etc etc etc etc etc is just as extream (we are told) can be on someone elses land English nature for example and yet.. do they need insurence?

People who like you and cap 'n chris etc etc who say its normal, we should accept it, no point in moaning are just creating a society were at some point humans will need to be insured AT BIRTH to step out of ones front door for fear we might get injured or injure someone. To me this is not fantasy this is the way society is moving and anyone who thinks this insurence idea is a good idea is simply helping create such a society.

I also still hold with the idea insurence removes personal responsability as no fear exists because the insurence will pick up the bill. Maybe if people knew they would be presented with a big bill maybe they would take more care.

Sorry if I have stolen this thread but the point needs to be made over and over again.

6 bloody months to get insurence green cards - who ever organises these things is in my view incapable of doing his or her job. Dont give me crap about volunteers I'm paying for a service here and its rubbish. Please your welcome to quote me at the next CSCC meeting.

You clearly didn't read my post, I suggest you do so, shortly before ringing Nick Williams and volunteering your services to help.

 

[Rachel]

On a slightly different sort of insurance, when we got our mortgage, we found we had to shop about to get a reasonable life insurance deal that didn't exclude caving. I can recommend Lonsdale insurance, who sent a caver out to fill our forms in. I can't remember what the premium turned out to be, but it was ok and based on sensible questions like 'how many times a year do you go caving?', 'how many years caving experience do you have?' and 'have you ever been rescued and why?'

 

[kay]

I think they may be improving - I took out a life insurance last year from one of the big names, and they sent me a supplementary form to answer on the caving, which again had lots of sensible questions which did not give the impression of being written by someone who had never been in a cave in his life. I was favourably surprised.

 

[Jagman]

I'm afraid that whilst I respect everybodies right to choose to buy BCA insurance I passionatley dislike it.

The value of the insurance is doubtful, kinda proven by the lack of claims ever made on it.

In a recent incedent (which I do not wish to be specific about) it became apparent that in some cases club organisation and insurance would present severe difficulties and in itself create a liability issue.

I strongly feel that the individual has the right to choose, and my preference is not to insure.

Everybody who ventures underground with me accepts this (and on the whole are in full agreement) and recognises the risks involved are entirely volutary and your own responsibilty. To the extent that if I'm going underground with somebody I have not been with before I make my position perfectly clear before we go under.

 

[Sewer Rat]

Having looked at the nitty gritty of BCA insurance, its a bit poop! but for the price its not bad.

looking at private insurance. things get much worse.
£42 a month to cover part of my wage to pay out £13000 a year maximum
I would have to be incapasitated for more than 6 months before i would get a penny.
The way i look at , and i may be wrong please tell me if i am.
If I hurt myself caving like breaak an arm or dislocate a shoulder
I would be all fixed in 6 months.
If i was likely to be off work more than that.
I would probally be a lot more seriously hurt, probally back injuries or something permanant. therefore i would be able to get incapasity benifit.
As a last resort of corse.

 

[andymorgan]

yeah and all that could be applied to any outdoor sport that crosses land...

So why is caving special when mountain biking, climbing, mountain walking, etc etc etc etc etc etc is just as extream (we are told) can be on someone elses land English nature for example and yet.. do they need insurence?

While I see the benefits of having insurance, I think Darkplaces has a point here. Why do some landowners insist on insurance when allowing others such as ramblers and cyclists to cross their land without any. After all the only bits extra we may damage are underground, and it isn't the farmers liabilty if any accident happens to a third party (I think they have to have insurance themselves anyway, correct me if I'm wrong (Hugh?)). Or does this case not apply: i.e. they only allow access to cavers and nobody else.
Come to think of it I think the only caves that insist on liablity insurance are show caves, and I can see why. If Mr City Boy Lawer comes along with his wife and kids when his precious daughter slips in her platforms on a piece of mud a caver left ruining her (potential) gymnastic career, it is probably the cave owner would palm off liabilty on to you. If there are other non-show caves that insist on insurance, why?

 

[cap n chris]

Sorry, Andy, Darkplaces does not have a point.

Any landowner is entirely within their rights to ask anyone planning on engaging in an activity on that privately owned land to provide proof of insurance if they so wish.

Ramblers, climbers, mountain bikers and mountaineers have access to insurance policies (as do cavers) and in particular instances may be required to provide proof of such. Non show-caves where insurance is required certainly include Fairy Cave Quarry caves, for example; this is a requirement of the access condition following negotiations between the access management committee and the landowner.

Just because someone doesn't understand why insurance is required does not mean that its requirement is invalid or unjustified or unnecessary.

If a landowner wants you to be insured and you want to visit the site, you're going to need to get insurance, surely? Argue all you like but we're asking a favour of the landowner .... you probably won't get far trying to argue against someone who's extending you a conditional favour.