Caving insurance - club opinion/policy ?

damian

Active member
Jenny P said:
The system which has worked in my club for the last few years is to request a payment of ?5.00 for a "BCA temporary insurance" (which only covers 17 days, i.e. will cover 3 weekends) and you take all the necessary details from the person insured.
Jenny, of course, means "BCA temporary MEMBERSHIP" which includes insurance as a benefit. And, for further avoidance of doubt, BCA temporary membership arranged through a Member Club that itself contributes to the insurance scheme, is free from BCA's point of view. Some Clubs charge their own fee, but it would be appreciated if this weren't explained as the fee for temporary BCA membership.
Jenny P said:
It just does seem worthwhile to ensure that everyone is covered by the same insurance when it's only a matter of the price of a few pints.
As above, temporary BCA membership is free (designed to encourage people to try out caving).
 

nickwilliams

Well-known member
One of the reasons for the delay in responding to this thread has been that I have been awaiting a conversation with our new insurer in order to agree how it should be handled.

I managed to have that conversation earlier today and I'm pleased to report that, rather than you having to take my word for it, Sven Edwards from Perkins Slade, the BCA's broker, will respond to the questions in this thread next week. He will also answer follow up questions although please remember he's not a caver or mine explorer so be gentle with him!

We are also updating the Frequently Asked Questions document to reflect changes in the policy since the FAQ was last issued in 2008, and the document will be hosted by Perkins Slade so it can be easily updated in future.

Following the conversation with Sven, it looks like we are going to change the arrangements for temporary membership for prospective club members so that cover will be provided for up to four taster trips over the course of a year rather than there being a specific time limit. This means that prospective members will be able to attend up to four club meets, after which they will be expected to join the scheme in order to continue to be insured. Comments on this proposal would be welcome.

Finally, I'm delighted to be able to announce that Badlad has agreed to create a new section of the forum specifically for insurance threads. This will cover the BCA PL scheme, travel insurance and hut insurance, among other topics, and hopefully will become a useful resource to deal with questions such as those above in future. The new section will become live in a few weeks time.

Regards to all,

Nick Williams
BCA PL Scheme Manager
 

Peter Burgess

New member
These useful ideas and comments are very welcome. The time we waste every year at meetings and at the AGM trying to answer insurance questions is significant!
 

crickleymal

New member
nickwilliams said:
Following the conversation with Sven, it looks like we are going to change the arrangements for temporary membership for prospective club members so that cover will be provided for up to four taster trips over the course of a year rather than there being a specific time limit. This means that prospective members will be able to attend up to four club meets, after which they will be expected to join the scheme in order to continue to be insured. Comments on this proposal would be welcome.
That seems like a very sensible move to me. I have seen people come along to try caving and couldn't do the three trips within three weeks (or whatever the time period was) due to other commitments. I'm not too sure about extending the period to a whole year, maybe 6 or even 3 months but it is a definite improvement.
 

cavermark

New member
nickwilliams said:
Following the conversation with Sven, it looks like we are going to change the arrangements for temporary membership for prospective club members so that cover will be provided for up to four taster trips over the course of a year rather than there being a specific time limit. This means that prospective members will be able to attend up to four club meets, after which they will be expected to join the scheme in order to continue to be insured. Comments on this proposal would be welcome.

Finally, I'm delighted to be able to announce that Badlad has agreed to create a new section of the forum specifically for insurance threads. This will cover the BCA PL scheme, travel insurance and hut insurance, among other topics, and hopefully will become a useful resource to deal with questions such as those above in future. The new section will become live in a few weeks time.

Regards to all,

Nick Williams
BCA PL Scheme Manager

The 4 trips sounds much handier than a time limit.

Forum section for all matters insurance sounds really useful.

Thanks
 

Pegasus

Administrator
Staff member
[/quote]



Forum section for all matters insurance sounds really useful.

[/quote]

Good suggestion, have made a note....
 

Olaf

New member
nickwilliams said:
Following the conversation with Sven, it looks like we are going to change the arrangements for temporary membership for prospective club members so that cover will be provided for up to four taster trips over the course of a year rather than there being a specific time limit. This means that prospective members will be able to attend up to four club meets, after which they will be expected to join the scheme in order to continue to be insured. Comments on this proposal would be welcome.

I assume this is just some informal preliminary information so far, as it does not seem very clearly formulated:
- What if a "club trip" or "taster trip" involves going to two or more caves on the same day, e.g. Burrington Combe springs to mind? I assume it counts as "1 taster trip"
- What if a "club trip" spans a whole weekend, as typical University trips do? I assume it counts as "2 trips of caving", if you'd go on both days.
- Something I've always been wondering about regarding the "temporary members": What if someone changes clubs to exploit a maximum of free caving trials? What if they (intentionally or not) don't tell their new club that they've just used up their free trial period with another club? What if they've done caving once or twice before with e.g. scouts or commercial tour operators? What if they have been caving abroad before?
- Imagine some experienced caver from abroad comes on an underground camping trip to the UK and needs temporary membership for insurance. Very far fetched, admittedly, but does it count as one trip or as one trip per day?
 

nickwilliams

Well-known member
Olaf said:
I assume this is just some informal preliminary information so far, as it does not seem very clearly formulated:

You assume correctly

Olaf said:
- What if a "club trip" or "taster trip" involves going to two or more caves on the same day, e.g. Burrington Combe springs to mind? I assume it counts as "1 taster trip"

That would be one trip.

Olaf said:
- What if a "club trip" spans a whole weekend, as typical University trips do? I assume it counts as "2 trips of caving", if you'd go on both days.

That would be one trip.

Olaf said:
- Something I've always been wondering about regarding the "temporary members": What if someone changes clubs to exploit a maximum of free caving trials?

If they genuinely decide they don't like one club and want to try another then they will be insured. If their intention is simply to avoid paying for insurance then they are taking the piss and won't be insured.

Olaf said:
What if they (intentionally or not) don't tell their new club that they've just used up their free trial period with another club?

See above.

Olaf said:
What if they've done caving once or twice before with e.g. scouts or commercial tour operators?

These trips are not with a BCA club so they won't count as being part of the BCA temporary provisions.

Olaf said:
What if they have been caving abroad before?

See above.

Olaf said:
- Imagine some experienced caver from abroad comes on an underground camping trip to the UK and needs temporary membership for insurance. Very far fetched, admittedly, but does it count as one trip or as one trip per day?

This type of trip is not the purpose of temporary membership. In many cases, such people will have cover through membership of their own national organisation, but if this does not provide them with adequate cover then we would recommend that they join BCA in the normal way. However, as has already been stated elsewhere, there is no compunction for them to be insured unless they want to visit one of those places where it is a condition of insurance such as Peak Cavern or Dan-Yr-Ogof.

 

nickwilliams

Well-known member
At risk of stealing Sven's thunder when he replies next week, I need to make a general point here which applies to most of the questions asked further up the thread.

BCA's PL policy does not work like your car insurance where there is a very closely defined range of cover and if you step one inch outside that range, the insurer uses it as an excuse to avoid the claim. Instead, the insurers basically say that so long as people are sensible in how they go about their activities, they will pick up the costs of any claim made against a BCA member, or a landowner who allows BCA members to cave (or explore abandoned mines) on their land.

Within that there are certain caveats - for example the policy will not cover anyone acting in any kind of paid or professional capacity, nor will it cover you in the event that your activity is criminal, or grossly negligent. However, for all normal purposes, BCA members are covered for all normal caving activities.

The important question for BCA members is not "am I insured?" but "am I insurable?" By that, what I mean is that if BCA members persist in doing things which result in successful claims against them then either the insurance will get very expensive very quickly or it will be withdrawn as being unviable (i.e. no one will want to insure us). However, so long as members continue to act sensibly then the cover will be maintained.

Before anyone asks, no I am not going to try to tie down a definition of 'sensible' any more closely. It's in neither BCA's nor the insurer's interests to do this. Ultimately, it's a matter which a court will decide. However, think of it in these terms: if I take a party of 10 children on my own down Swildons with them all in dry gear and plimsols with hand torches on a day when thunderstorms are forecast and make them all climb the 20 without a lifeline then that's probably not sensible or reasonable. On the other hand, if I have a friend who is a fit outdoors type person who wants to try caving for the first time, I kit them up properly and on a nice settled day with a few experienced and competent friends take them down Ireby Fell Cavern, then that probably is reasonable.

Somewhere in between there must be a tipping point between reasonable and unreasonable, but if anyone tells you they know exactly where that point is before it comes in front of a court then they are deluded.

Pay the correct insurance contribution for your BCA membership, take appropriate precautions and act sensibly and you will be covered. Do anything less that that and you may not be. That's as precise as one can be.

 

kay

Well-known member
nickwilliams said:
Following the conversation with Sven, it looks like we are going to change the arrangements for temporary membership for prospective club members so that cover will be provided for up to four taster trips over the course of a year rather than there being a specific time limit. This means that prospective members will be able to attend up to four club meets, after which they will be expected to join the scheme in order to continue to be insured. Comments on this proposal would be welcome.

That's a good improvement. The trouble with the current version - enough cover for 3 consecutive weekends - is that especially smaller clubs don't have meets on 3 consecutive weekends, especially caves suitable for novices. And even if they did, the potential new caver isn't necessarily free on 3 consecutive weekends. I think the year is about right too. There are cavers who are members of clubs and who don't cave more than half a dozen times a year.
 

Ian Adams

Active member
Nick .....

This is all totally awesome, thank you so very much for your work in this area and the work you continue to do. I know it is hugely significant to all cavers/clubs and very important.

Thank you most sincerely.

:)

Ian Adams (UCET)
 

hrock

New member
sorting out insurance is i think traditionally a thankless task but now that that rule has be broken

This is all totally awesome, thank you so very much for your work in this area and the work you continue to do. I know it is hugely significant to all cavers/clubs and very important.

Thank you most sincerely.

:)

Ian Adams (UCET)

I agree thank you for sorting it all out and keeping us all caving
 

Brains

Well-known member
Jackalpup said:
A) I understand that a ?new? caver can come along with the club as a ?taster? and the BCA insurance policy extends cover to that (please correct if wrong) ?
B) What if that same person wants to come along outside of the permitted BCA insurance timeframe?  Would ?your club? disallow such a request ?
C) If the request was allowed, is there any detriment to the insured members or would it just be the uninsured member who has accepted a ?risk? ?
D) What if it is a member who didn't renew their subs ? would ?your club? treat that person any differently ?
E) What if it were the son or daughter of a member who was under 18 ? would ?your club? treat that person any differently ?
F) Is the ?risk? for an under 18 different to ?C? above (ie. will it fall to their parent who is also on the trip and insured ?) ?

A,B and C fairly well covered so far...
D - They cease to be a club member, and excluded from "club" events
E - Yes, a child welfare person, pre nominated by the club by the club with set responsibilities, would need to be informed consulted (Alan Brentnall, "Al" on here I think, would know a lot more about this).
F is therefore covered by E
A club trip maybe a single cave, weekend or even fortnight away that is organised by the club, for the club members, and is advertised as such. Other trips not so advertised are NOT club trips but may include some club members

My tuppence as an ex club official which is no doubt outdated or just plain wrong!
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
Brains said:
Yes, a child welfare person, pre nominated by the club by the club with set responsibilities, would need to be informed consulted
It frustrates me that people don't make reference to the powerful exclusion contained in the SVG Act which exempts its application to a situation where the under 18 is with a family friend.

Brains said:
A club trip maybe a single cave, weekend or even fortnight away that is organised by the club, for the club members, and is advertised as such. Other trips not so advertised are NOT club trips but may include some club members
My take would be that any trip involving either more than one member of a club whether or not non members were present or using club equipment (which could include just meeting at the club hut) would be seen by the court as a trip condoned by the club and thus potentially creating a liability for the members of the club.  Unless the club specifically has rules stating otherwise and also has taken clear actions to enforce them.  As I recollect, one of the incidents I referred to was not "organised by the club, for the club members, and is advertised as such" but was just a small group of people including some club members meeting up, deciding to do a trip and using club equipment.

 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Bob Mehew said:
As I recollect, one of the incidents I referred to was not "organised by the club, for the club members, and is advertised as such" but was just a small group of people including some club members meeting up, deciding to do a trip and using club equipment.

Presumably this means that any trip involving use of a club ladder must also stipulate mandatory use of a safety line if it is not to fall into the gross negligence category, and unilateral failure to use a safety line would void the insurance of the cavers on the trip?
 
My take would be that any trip involving either more than one member of a club whether or not non members were present...would be seen by the court as a trip condoned by the club

How would they make head or tail of a typical mid-week trip for me and my mates...1 members of OCC Only, 1 or 2 OCC & YSS, a YSS only, a CCC only and someone who's not a club member at all but has DIM BCA Insurance?

Seems silly to suggest
any trip involving either more than one member of a club
would be considered a club sanctioned trip...
 

Peter Burgess

New member
There is no way that a large club can actively "sanction" every single cave/mine related activity that all of it's members do. None of us want to be control freaks, despite the comments made from time to time. Few cavers would stay long in such a club anyway.

The practical limit of "sanctioning" could be considered trips where a member has been trusted with access to a site or accommodation controlled by the club, or where the club has arranged a trip to a site managed by another group, trips that have been published for members to join, by email or through a diary. An unpublished ad-hoc trip arranged by a member for his friends really ought to be considered not "sanctioned" although the members on the trip should behave as responsibly as if it were a "sanctioned" trip.
 
unilateral failure to use a safety line would void the insurance of the cavers on the trip

I feel a blanket statement like this linking specific technique/equipment to Insurance Liability would be a thin end of a wedge towards specifying reccomended techniques/equipment for vertical caving..something cavers have long resisted.

 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
Please bear in mind that it is also known for the judge to reduce the extent of damages owed to the injured party because of 'contributory negligence'.  Just as you are not allowed out by yourself to drive a car before you pass the driving test, should a club allow you to cave before you have displayed a suitable degree of competence?  (And yes I deliberately use a set of weasel words which I won't even start to attempt to define.)  However, I think our real problem is not the potential for blanket statements, it is the wife and kids who come along afterwards and say 'some one else must be to blame for his/her accident'.  The costs involved in defending a case can be crippling. 

By the way I did not say 'sanctioned', I deliberately used the word 'condoned' given the constitutions of most clubs usually aim to promote caving.  A useful way of thinking about this is to consider what the club's reaction would be if a member along with  non members found a major new system? 
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Condoned is right. If a member does something the club is not happy with, then when asked would they condone such action, the answer would be a simple no.
 
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