caving insurance

[cuteypie]

Just out of curiosity- what would happen if every cave in the country refused to take out caving insurance. It was never needed in the past and no-one (to my knowledge) has ever tried to make a claim. The caving world should have knocked this lunacy on the head right from day one

 

[topcat]

As far as I'm aware, this is pretty much the situation with climbers.  The only ones insured will be the pros...............I don't know any climber who climbs as an individual who bothers with insurance.

I take it out for expeds. abroad, but not for the UK.  Same for caving.

 

[graham]

There have been claims, albeit not under the present policy.

What would have happened in many cases is that access arrangements that have been negotiated might not have happened. I can think of several negotiations whose success depended on that cover being available.

 

[paul]

Don't forget, the insurance arranged via BCA or "caving insurance" is for Third Party Liability. It is a requirement for entry into some caves - without which there would be no access.

 

[graham]

As far as I'm aware, this is pretty much the situation with climbers.  The only ones insured will be the pros...............I don't know any climber who climbs as an individual who bothers with insurance.

I take it out for expeds. abroad, but not for the UK.  Same for caving.

If they are members of the BMC they carry PI insurance, much as members of the BCA do.

 

[Stu]

As far as I'm aware, this is pretty much the situation with climbers.  The only ones insured will be the pros...............I don't know any climber who climbs as an individual who bothers with insurance.

I take it out for expeds. abroad, but not for the UK.  Same for caving.

If they are members of the BMC they carry PI insurance, much as members of the BCA do.

Correct. Though more detailed is that climbers don't need to be a member of BMC or have PL insurance, to climb even on those crags where where there are access restrictions i.e private land and permission is needed. There are though strange exceptions with some of the crags on MOD land.

 

[graham]

As far as I'm aware, this is pretty much the situation with climbers.  The only ones insured will be the pros...............I don't know any climber who climbs as an individual who bothers with insurance.

I take it out for expeds. abroad, but not for the UK.  Same for caving.

If they are members of the BMC they carry PI insurance, much as members of the BCA do.

Correct. Though more detailed is that climbers don't need to be a member of BMC or have PL insurance, to climb even on those crags where where there are access restrictions i.e private land and permission is needed. There are though strange exceptions with some of the crags on MOD land.

And not every cave owner requires it either. Some do, some don't.

 

[Stu]

As far as I'm aware, this is pretty much the situation with climbers.  The only ones insured will be the pros...............I don't know any climber who climbs as an individual who bothers with insurance.

I take it out for expeds. abroad, but not for the UK.  Same for caving.

If they are members of the BMC they carry PI insurance, much as members of the BCA do.

Correct. Though more detailed is that climbers don't need to be a member of BMC or have PL insurance, to climb even on those crags where where there are access restrictions i.e private land and permission is needed. There are though strange exceptions with some of the crags on MOD land.

And not every cave owner requires it either. Some do, some don't.

Do you think the majority do? Dales as a case with access with permit = need to be in an affiliated club (and insured)? 

I bet on balance there are many more. Don't want to really start adding them up though.

 

[Stu]

I don't mind the insurance aspect to be fair. Member of the BMC too. It could have some advantage if I dropped a rock on someone's head, rendering them unable to work, thus their family come after me.

It's not health and safety gone mad either (which I believe is a lazy myth). Liability for doing something wrong to someone has been around for a long time - making reparation for a wrong doing has been around since the Romans I believe. If you're to blame, you are to blame and having some back up isn't a bad idea.

 

[graham]

Dunno about a 'majority' Stu, but I've just checked one area close to me, Cheddar Gorge and this is what they say about climbing:

Members of the British Mountaineering Council and affiliated clubs, who hold current 3rd Party Liability Insurance, may climb for recreational purposes only and on a non fit injuria basis on the climbing routes in the ?Cheddar Gorge Climbs? guidebook, published by Longleat Enterprises Ltd, at the times of year agreed, on the specific climbing routes agreed, and in accordance with the Code of Conduct agreed between Longleat Enterprises Ltd and the BMC, which is updated annually on their website www.thebmc.co.uk and on here.

So. not just some of the crags on MOD land.

 

[Stu]

Dunno about a 'majority' Stu, but I've just checked one area close to me, Cheddar Gorge and this is what they say about climbing:

Members of the British Mountaineering Council and affiliated clubs, who hold current 3rd Party Liability Insurance, may climb for recreational purposes only and on a non fit injuria basis on the climbing routes in the ?Cheddar Gorge Climbs? guidebook, published by Longleat Enterprises Ltd, at the times of year agreed, on the specific climbing routes agreed, and in accordance with the Code of Conduct agreed between Longleat Enterprises Ltd and the BMC, which is updated annually on their website www.thebmc.co.uk and on here.

So. not just some of the crags on MOD land.

Agreed, though it is owned as a private estate though isn't it? Which makes what difference I don't know.

Can't think of too many in the Welsh mountains, Lake District, Peak District, Scotland (never climbed in Ireland) though. Suspect on balance there is a massively inverse proportion. As I said it doesn't bother (or effect me - see post above  ).

 

[Pitlamp]

Just out of curiosity- what would happen if every cave in the country refused to take out caving insurance. It was never needed in the past and no-one (to my knowledge) has ever tried to make a claim. The caving world should have knocked this lunacy on the head right from day one

I presume you mean if every "caver" refused? (Not trying to score cheap points related to typos; just trying to be absolutely clear what you're driving at.)

I ask because if you did mean "caver" then the question will always be hypothetical. (I can say this with conviction because I'm one of many people who is more than happy to have this cover.)

We went through all this discussion when the present scheme was set up. I'm certainly grateful for it - and I continue to be utterly amazed by just how cheaply the BCA has managed to arrange it for us.

If anyone's not keen on the idea of the insurance scheme then that's fine; there is a choice not to join. Bear in mind that this may have consequences, some of which are alluded to by other folk who have posted above. I could add other benefits which are not so immediately obvious but I'd prefer not to in a public forum like this (for reasons which I'm sure you'd understand if you and I were discussing this informally over a beer).

 

[Jenny P]

A number of landowners in the Peak District do insist that people entering their land have P.L. insurance and having the BCA insurance available has meant that we have been able to negotiate access where it was otherwise refused.  Peak Cavern is a prime example where owners will not allow access without insurance - but there are any number of other caves which happen to be on land belonging to one of the big estates.

Many farmers, including tenant farmers, have solicitors who insist on advising them (incorrectly) that they will be "liable" if they give permission for access and then a caver has an accident in a cave on their land.  In fact they will not be liable but it is almost impossible to counter the misinformation - they prefer to believe the solicitor they have paid for the advice!

DCA has been able to persuade most of these that, provided the caver has a BCA insurance card, they have nothing to fear and an access agreement has been reached without even the necessity of a locked gate.  In some cases owners will want to see the BCA card when you call to ask permission;  in most cases they are content that DCA has advised cavers in the region that access is conditional on having BCA insurance and require no more than that.

Make no mistake, having an easily available insurance as part of your BCA membership deal (whether a direct individual member or a club member) gets you into a lot of caves you wouldn't otherwise be able to enter.

Jenny Potts
Hon. secretary DCA

 

[DavidGibson]

Just out of curiosity- what would happen if every cave[r] in the country refused to take out caving insurance. It was never needed in the past and no-one (to my knowledge) has ever tried to make a claim. The caving world should have knocked this lunacy on the head right from day one

Unfortunately, you are wrong on a couple of key points. Firstly, it was needed in the past - and was provided by BCRA. and secondly, there have been claims.

Obviously there was a date, at some point in the past, when public liability insurance was not provided, but it started to be provided by BCRA quite some time ago, possibly mid 80s ??  The scheme involved a small contribution from each member club (not individuals) and the insurance covered all members.  The policy was inexpensive, so the insurance levy on clubs was small.

However, when you make a claim on a policy, the premium goes up. This, plus the fact that the insurance companies started to "notice" caving, and panicked a bit, meant that the insurance became vastly too expensive to continue in its existing form. At the time (early 2000s) , BCRA had around 800 member IIRC (it had been steadily dropping from its peak of 1200 or so, for some years). Given that it was considered that without a Public Liability policy, caving would become much more difficult in the UK, we had to find a method of collecting money from a much larger number of people. This was one of the two major reasons for the formation of the BCA. (The other being to do with the need for a representative body for individual cavers to help with obtaining funding for the sport) (Actually, there's a twist to this, which I wont bore you with, unless it comes up later).

You say "The caving world should have knocked this lunacy on the head" but ... just think for a moment ... the people who did the work in setting up the present scheme (a group of people representing BCRA, the former NCA and the Regional Councils, known as the Hub Group) didnt do it because we "liked" insurance, we did it because it was the only way that we could see to get out of a dilemma. A different group of people, with different insights, might have reached a different solution, but we couldnt see one.