Climbing wall rules
- Thread starter hannahb
- Start date
georgenorth
Active member
Evidently more than 0%.
From the climbing wall owner’s perspective, how do you set any other policy, apart from following the manufacturer’s lifespan on climbing equipment?
aricooperdavis
Moderator
I've had exactly the same experience when I first started climbing and was using my dad's old harness! Although it didn't feel embarrassing as the staff were lovely about it, let me use a hire one for free, and offered me a discount on the ones they sell (in hindsight perhaps they considered me a bit of a charity case 🤔).
I wouldn't worry too much about it - they've got good intentions, trying to keep you safe by following manufacturer recommendations, and to be honest I'm glad they take this approach of following the rules rather than make their own judgments on safety critical matters based on their googling of accident statistics!
It feels better to think of equipment like this as having a fixed lifespan, so that when it comes to replace it you don't feel hard done by. Then you can factor this into your considerations when buying it (e.g. this harness will cost me about £5 per year of use).
wellyjen
Well-known member
In any similar situation, base the decision on "What would I say at the inquest?", if it all goes horribly wrong. If you are going to sound awful, then do something different. Rather more dramatic than "What would I say during the liability claim?" and concentrates the mind.
cavemanmike
Well-known member
To be fair it was one of the climbing wall owners who came over and had a quiet word. He obviously knew his stuff as he said they stopped making that harnesses 10 year’s ago ( different colours now). It’s a Petzl coral which felt (and still does 😉) far more substantial than the ones they lent to us
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Stevie
New member
Many years ago as a cocky 16 year old I was at the newly opened Leeds wall, badly lowering my mate like a cocky 16 year old. The guy came up and told me to sort it out. Like a cocky 16 year old I said “Why? Does it invalidate your insurance?” His reply, “no it invalidates yours”. Never forgotten that.
Alex
Well-known member
Parthion, Manchester told my husband last weekend his harness was too old was 6 years, mine still has a year left. Never used to be checked but seems health and safety is more of a thing now. However, they were good enough to lend him a climbing center one free of charge at-least for that session.
So 5 years seems to be the limit there, for future reference.
So 5 years seems to be the limit there, for future reference.
Some designs are only recommended for 5 years, others for 10 (although this itself is 4 years out of date):
climbingblogger.com
Lifespan Of Your Climbing Harness: When Should You Retire It? • Climbing Blogger
The problem with the lifespan of climbing harnesses, and climbing equipment in general, is that it depends or many factors:
climbingblogger.com
JoshW
Well-known member
There is an opinion that climbing walls may be increasing their liability by doing checks like these on harness suitability and checks on how people belay.
Manufacturers lifespans are a maximum and not a given. A harness that’s been well used will be very unlikely to reach its full 10 years (or 5+5 in some cases). Therefore if a climbing wall is saying you can use it, because it’s less than 10 years old, are they inadvertently opening themselves up to liability claims in the case of an accident. Have they fully checked the harness? Harness age is just one of many things that would be checked under a PPE/suitability check. It’s unlikely. But they could be interpreted as saying ‘yes your harness is safe to use’.
There’s a theory that they should be more hands off, utilising disclaimers saying ‘we assume by using this climbing wall that your kit is suitable, and in date. If you’re not sure please refer to the manufacturers info’ and a similar one for belaying pointing towards talking to suitably competent staff if unsure.
I personally believe these checks will reduce the number of incidents (a good thing, obviously), but I’m not sure how many of them have considered the above, and this was allegedly brought to light in court during the legal proceedings following an incident.
Manufacturers lifespans are a maximum and not a given. A harness that’s been well used will be very unlikely to reach its full 10 years (or 5+5 in some cases). Therefore if a climbing wall is saying you can use it, because it’s less than 10 years old, are they inadvertently opening themselves up to liability claims in the case of an accident. Have they fully checked the harness? Harness age is just one of many things that would be checked under a PPE/suitability check. It’s unlikely. But they could be interpreted as saying ‘yes your harness is safe to use’.
There’s a theory that they should be more hands off, utilising disclaimers saying ‘we assume by using this climbing wall that your kit is suitable, and in date. If you’re not sure please refer to the manufacturers info’ and a similar one for belaying pointing towards talking to suitably competent staff if unsure.
I personally believe these checks will reduce the number of incidents (a good thing, obviously), but I’m not sure how many of them have considered the above, and this was allegedly brought to light in court during the legal proceedings following an incident.
Loki
Active member
@ Hannah. What age did they state was thier maximum? Or were they looking at the original instructions for that model? Just wondering.
@all
There are many factors that can affect polyester, not all of them visible. What I can say from experience is that if you’re sure it’s not been in contact with harmful chemicals and has had little use it’s likely fine. Webbings should have uv inhibitors making them pretty indestructible to sunlight. We drop tested some ppe harnesses that had been left on the factory roof for 15 years and they still passed.
The absolutely biggest issue is damaged fibres or sewing threads. This is not always visible.
Mechanical movement in the harness can in some situations destroy a harness fast. Eg prusiking. I destroyed the junction sews on a new srt harness in 3 weeks on expedition when the mud was really aggressive. You could only see it after pulling the pieces of web apart and looking at the sew threads between the layers. About a third of the stitch pattern had broken up.
In summary- take care of your equipment and it will take care of you! And manufacturers expiry dates whilst being relatively arbitrary are designed to protect you.
@all
There are many factors that can affect polyester, not all of them visible. What I can say from experience is that if you’re sure it’s not been in contact with harmful chemicals and has had little use it’s likely fine. Webbings should have uv inhibitors making them pretty indestructible to sunlight. We drop tested some ppe harnesses that had been left on the factory roof for 15 years and they still passed.
The absolutely biggest issue is damaged fibres or sewing threads. This is not always visible.
Mechanical movement in the harness can in some situations destroy a harness fast. Eg prusiking. I destroyed the junction sews on a new srt harness in 3 weeks on expedition when the mud was really aggressive. You could only see it after pulling the pieces of web apart and looking at the sew threads between the layers. About a third of the stitch pattern had broken up.
In summary- take care of your equipment and it will take care of you! And manufacturers expiry dates whilst being relatively arbitrary are designed to protect you.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
But how many? "Evidently" isn't really evidence.
I'm pleased to read some posts here mentioning that at least some climbing walls are willing to lend an alternative harness, if they insist on following some arbitrary "rule". I do understand the dilemma that climbing wall operators may have (to answer your question above). But is this 5 year idea set by manufacturers or by an independent body? If the former, is it entirely for the best of reasons, one can't help wondering?
BikinGlynn
Member
absolutely, same for most PPE.
My cycling helmets usually last well over 10yr no issues but of course manufactures recommend changing them every 5!
Pitlamp
Well-known member
I suppose manufacturers have to try and give some indication of expected safe lifespan. But it will always be arbitrary. The main variable they can't take into account is how the harness is used. It might become utterly unsafe after less than a year yet an owner may be blissfully unaware and assume it's got several more years of useful life. It may still be perfectly safe after 10 years.
As the user is the person who best knows how the item has been used and stored, there is an argument that (s)he is in the best position to make the judgement. Guidance from manufacturers should be welcomed; an arbitrary "rule" is perhaps a step too far. We shouldn't just accept such things being inflicted on us without at least asking for reasons why.
As the user is the person who best knows how the item has been used and stored, there is an argument that (s)he is in the best position to make the judgement. Guidance from manufacturers should be welcomed; an arbitrary "rule" is perhaps a step too far. We shouldn't just accept such things being inflicted on us without at least asking for reasons why.
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Loki
Active member
I didn’t say that I’m in the harness manufacturing business and know what I’m talking about!
Ah. I was at Parthian Harrogate.
They didn't give a maximum age if I remember correctly. But when asked (while I was belaying someone) I said how old I thought it was, approximately, and the man said something like "That is dangerous, it will fail, you need to remove it and destroy it." It's over ten years old, but I can't remember when I got it. It's probably 12 or 13 years old. It shows almost no signs of wear and I assumed that was fine but I guess I'm wrong. I'm going to get a new one anyway.
That's more or less how I've proceeded until now.
I don't know whether the climbing walls are asking to check the condition of people's harnesses, but I hope they are, otherwise their age rule seems a bit pointless, given that some people can wear out a climbing harness in a couple of years.
Anyway, the chap was just doing his job I suppose, and it doesn't sound like it's just a Harrogate thing, so I feel less weird about it now.
langcliffe
Well-known member
I go to the Harrogate wall most weeks, and fortunately they have yet to comment on my prehistoric equipment. I will await with bated breath... Jeremy Hunt didn't anticipate such expenditure when determining the old age pension.
caving_fox
Active member
Also had one of my climbing friend's harness banned on the same grounds (can't remember which wall) was given a free loan for the session which seems the sensible way of going about it. Seems reasonable enough to me, and a reminder to all of us to check our gear more often!
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
Personally I would struggle to work at a climbing wall without going mad given the crap quality of a lot of the belaying...
