Climbing wall rules

[Fjell]

I go to the Harrogate wall most weeks, and fortunately they have yet to comment on my prehistoric equipment. I will await with bated breath... Jeremy Hunt didn't anticipate such expenditure when determining the old age pension.

If you spent less in Betty’s you could easily stretch to a new one. Anyway, I thought you were getting a 10% pay rise?

If I was regularly falling on a harness I would be changing it a lot more frequently than 5 years, which is about the max for me for a caving harness. I buy our kid a new rope and harness more frequently than that.

 

[cavemanmike]

Personally I would struggle to work at a climbing wall without going mad given the crap quality of a lot of the belaying...

Don’t get me started on climbing walls🤬🤬🤬

 

[georgenorth]

But how many? "Evidently" isn't really evidence.

Unfortunately records of the causes of climbing accidents aren’t kept in the UK. I think it’s safe to say that the number of accidents involving harness failure will be less than 1% of all accidents globally though.
The evidently comment was referencing my previous remark about the death of Todd Skinner, which is the only definite example that I know of.

 

[cavetroll]

absolutely, same for most PPE.
My cycling helmets usually last well over 10yr no issues but of course manufactures recommend changing them every 5!

By this do you mean they ‘look alright’ after well over 10 years, or do you mean that they saved you from a more serious concussion following a collision with the pavement in a helmet over 10 years old vs the exact same incident that you repeated for testing purposes with a new one? A bike helmet in particular, you don’t need it until you really really do - not to pick on your language in particular but I think this “it looks alright” argument gets used a lot.

Replacing a bike helmet every 10 years rather than 5 saves you £5 per year for a £50 lid. That’s about 10p per week, or 1p per commuter journey. Are our heads worth so little?

Ultimately this debate surfaces over and over in different guises. Most PPE *may* often be safe longer than the manufacturer estimates it will be, but why bet your life on that? The advantage being you save a few pounds, the disadvantage is that each accident is different. Standard tests do not replicate real life use. If I were in a near-fatal incident, I’d really not begrudge my daily 1p investment in the contents of my skull for an even marginal increase in survivability.

Finally all rules are arbitrary, you’re also not allowed to body belay, despite not much actual empirical evidence that this is less safe. In a climbing wall you can’t pick which arbitrary rules to follow and which to not follow.

I’m glad people have had generally good experiences of staff enforcing these rules, as others have said these staff members are not “jobsworth” annoyances, just people with jobs to do trying to keep you as safe as possible.

 

[mikem]

We've destroyed many many plastic climbing helmets with a sledge hammer & no matter the age it has taken far more force to break them than your neck would accept. However, some modern designs effectively have crumple zones, so will not protect you as well from a second impact, that would have less effect on a hardshell.

For fabric (harnesses) manufacturers have to recommend a date before a single one is likely to deteriorate due to age.

 

[Flotsam]

Personally I would struggle to work at a climbing wall without going mad given the crap quality of a lot of the belaying...

Enough to drive you up the wall!

 

[JAA]

Don Whillans will be turning over in his grave . . . .

Or rising from it to fight the climbing wall staff

 

[cavetroll]

We've destroyed many many plastic climbing helmets with a sledge hammer & no matter the age it has taken far more force to break them than your neck would accept. However, some modern designs effectively have crumple zones, so will not protect you as well from a second impact, that would have less effect on a hardshell.

For fabric (harnesses) manufacturers have to recommend a date before a single one is likely to deteriorate due to age.

My employer has an EN standard helmet testing rig, and whilst you’re right, older helmets break at high impact forces but this isn’t a good metric to use. Modern helmets use a mixture of plastic and elastic deformation when facing a substantial impact. In short you don’t want an indestructible helmet if a 5kg rock falls on you. (The second rock is irrelevant if the first one killed you outright)

Again bringing this back to the OP’s issue, older isn’t better or worse on a case by case scale, but *generally* newer is better. Manufacturers make a (not unbiased) judgement on what they think is appropriate. You’re welcome to make a different assessment - thought this may have downsides when visiting sites with rules.

 

[Tricky Dicky]

My local wall has just started checking harnesses and requests that they are less than 5 years old, otherwise you need to hire one of theirs. A bit of a apin in the ass when I'm there with 2 children, especially when there is realistically nothing wrong with a 6 year old harness.

 

[JoshW]

Kit manufacturers when calculating maximum strength of kit use a 3 sigma rating.

Statistically speaking a 3-sigma rating means that 99.9% of the products are stronger than the reported MBS rating. What this means is a 3-sigma rated MBS is three standard deviations below the average breaking strength. Standard deviation helps to define the spread in the distribution of a given test sample.

They will use a similar statistical modelling system for their maximum lifespans such that under reasonable use most (99.9%) kit reaches its ten years (or whatever the lifespan is) before failing. They could guesstimate a longer maximum lifespan but the % of kit that they could reasonably predict kit to be safe would decrease, and therefore take on a higher level of risk.

So yes, some of you guys saying ‘ my helmet/harness etc is 20 years old and is absolutely fine’ are absolutely right, but the chance that you’re wrong increases massively, and the manufacturers know this.

My tuppence worth is if I’m using kit lots, I can probably justify buying a new harness every 5 years as opposed to every 10, for the 50 quid it’ll cost me.. just don’t ask to see my caving helmet 😅

 

[Flotsam]

Are the materials used in harnesses UV stabilised? In any case, given the thickness of the webbing it would probably be unlikely that harness webbing would be degraded to the extent of failure. Where there is significant vulnerably is with the thread used to stitch harnesses. Stitching will be fully exposed to any UV there might be. With caving, obviously not much, with climbing obviously more likely. In Todd Skinner's case from the bit I've read onlne, his harness was described as frayed. His harness would presumably be heavily used, in high levels of UV plus lots of abrasion from crack and chimney climbing.
Sail materials and threads are UV stabilised. In spite of that, the life of thread exposed continuously at British latitudes is about Ten Years.

I would have noissue using a properly stored harness twenty years old.

 

[topcat]

A harness story: but a sample of only one , so make of it what you will.........

I climbed full time in the 1980's, living on £27.?? a week, so cash was tight. I bought a new Troll harness in 1981 and it was in weekly use until 1989, and then occasionally until 1992. Rock climbing, Scottish winter and Alpine summer.

In 1986, after taking a good number of modest lead falls it sustained a 20m FF2 down Pinnacle Face on Lochnagar. This fall destroyed most of the belay though obviously not all because we lived, and indeed climbed on to finish the route. The only remaining peg was removed by hand after I'd struggled back up to the high point and worked out the crux moves.
This was day 2 of a 5 day trip so there was no question of retiring it there and then! But it looked fine so continued to be used, dates as above. It must have taken a couple of dozen lead falls after that, but nothing beyond 7m. And countless abseils.

It looked fine and performed well right to the end. If there is no visible damage failure isn't going to happen on a harness 5-10 years old that is used in the totally benign environment of a climbing wall.

Maybe modern harness aren't made so well? Thinking about the self unravelling latest Petzl caving harnesses there maybe something in that.

The best solution to the OP is to avoid climbing walls. They help you get toned up, but hold you back in all other respects when it comes to leading 'real' climbs

 

[hannahb]

I think the best solution is to get a new harness, which I will

 

[georgenorth]

Probably the easiest solution! Thanks for posting this btw. All my harnesses are definitely over 5 years old and it’s not something I’d have been aware of otherwise!

 

[JoshW]

sustained a 20m FF2

Absolutely f*** that.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

At least this isn't like some US states where you need to show your belay certification.

 

[topcat]

Absolutely f*** that.

I seem to recall that word being used, more than once.....along with a very calm call to 'please get your weight off the ropes as soon as you can, and don't fall off again.'. Or something like that.....

 

[andrewmcleod]

I doubt that there is any good evidence from the manufacturers that their harnesses aren't any good after the stated lifetime. But they have to specify a maximum lifetime, and then carry the liability for that if the product degrades before then. So it's not really in a manufacturer's interest to spend a load of money determining that their harnesses will last more than ten years. A heavily-used harness will 'wear out' before then anyway (whether it reaches a level of wear that would _actually_ result in catastrophic failure is a different question to a level of wear where it _should_ be replaced is a different question of course).

 

[Pitlamp]

My local wall has just started checking harnesses and requests that they are less than 5 years old, otherwise you need to hire one of theirs. A bit of a apin in the ass when I'm there with 2 children, especially when there is realistically nothing wrong with a 6 year old harness.

How do they know how old your harness is anyway? And what if it'd sat in a dark cupboard in a shop for 2 or 3 years before you bought it? Are we all supposed to carry a wallet full of receipts for gear we've bought now? Not really looking for answers here, just musing on how an arbitrary 5 year "rule" isn't really very meaningful. I suppose it's good for business though.

 

[JoshW]

How do they know how old your harness is anyway

Serial numbers on harnesses give it 👍🏼

Not really looking for answers here, just musing on how an arbitrary 5 year "rule" isn't really very meaningful

my previous comment #29 shows how them enforcing this might actually be opening up further liability for the walls