CNCC in September

[NigR]

If the CNCC claim to represent cavers it seems odd they should resent us asking for clarification of something they have agreed to or discussed?

My experience is that the CNCC resent answering any questions which they feel may represent a threat to their supposed authority. I have yet to receive a straight answer to anything I have asked and have effectively given up trying, for example not bothering to post on the recently reopened thread concerning Dalebarn.

As to who they actually do represent is often very hard to ascertain. A very strange organisation indeed in my opinion.

 

[Pitlamp]

If the CNCC claim to represent cavers it seems odd they should resent us asking for clarification of something they have agreed to or discussed?

My experience is that the CNCC resent answering any questions which they feel may represent a threat to their supposed authority. I have yet to receive a straight answer to anything I have asked and have effectively given up trying, for example not bothering to post on the recently reopened thread concerning Dalebarn.

As to who they actually do represent is often very hard to ascertain. A very strange organisation indeed in my opinion.

I cave in the Dales all the time and your assessment of the CNCC is completely at variance with my own experience.

I'm nothing to do with the CNCC by the way; I'm just an ordinary caver. But one thing I do know is that the Council does its business in meetings, not on forums like this. So if you really want to have some influence, why not attend meetings?

 

[NigR]

But one thing I do know is that the Council does its business in meetings, not on forums like this. So if you really want to have some influence, why not attend meetings?

Yes, I do realise they do their business in meetings, well out of the public gaze. However, that is no reason for constantly refusing to give straight answers to perfectly reasonable questions on forums such as this.

I have no desire to have any influence within such a nebulous organisation. Even if I did, attending their meetings would be out of the question as I live hundreds of miles away from where they take place (as you know full well).

To my mind, this latest fiasco concerning commercial caving is a clear sign that they are desperate to appear to be in control of a situation that has slipped from their grasp. A reflection of and extension to their bunker mentality with regard to the unenforceable and outmoded permit systems they pretend are working so well!

 

[kay]

Yes, I do realise they do their business in meetings, well out of the public gaze.

That's an interesting comment. I'm not sure what you're suggesting as an alternative?

CNCC meetings are attended by representatives of member clubs, who are able to vote. They are also attended by non-voting observers, and the minutes are available on the website soon after the meeting. That's about as open as you can get, for an organisation which takes its decisions in the usual way, during the course of meetings.

What would the alternative be? An internet forum, like this, open to anyone to post and contribute? Sounds good ... but many cavers don't go anywhere near ukcaving, and of those that do, some, like you, are open about who they are and what their interests are, others use a pseudonym and most people haven't a clue who they are.

 

[jasonbirder]

Some of the commercial cavers wish to set up their own access organisation,
which would be outside the control of CNCC. Les accordingly drew up the
proposal in front of the meeting, which gives CNCC ultimate control.

If you read the minutes i'd guess this is the key paragraph...

If Commercial Cavers negotiated their own access agreement that presumably wouldn't involve applying on parchment six months in advance and signed off in blood by someone aged over 60 that has been a committee member of a CNCC caving club for over 25 years then pretty soon everyone else would start questioning why ordinary cavers couldn't have a more responsive access agreement too...

 

[graham]

Some of the commercial cavers wish to set up their own access organisation,
which would be outside the control of CNCC. Les accordingly drew up the
proposal in front of the meeting, which gives CNCC ultimate control.

If you read the minutes i'd guess this is the key paragraph...

If Commercial Cavers negotiated their own access agreement that presumably wouldn't involve applying on parchment six months in advance and signed off in blood by someone aged over 60 that has been a committee member of a CNCC caving club for over 25 years then pretty soon everyone else would start questioning why ordinary cavers couldn't have a more responsive access agreement too...

There are two ways of looking at this: One is yours, the other is a concern that if CNCC were to lose control then perchance the landowners, in seeing that there was money to be made, would start levying significant charges on ordinary cavers.

Obviously there would have been a third option available, which would have been to work with NE and the landowners to keep this excessive traffic out of these caves, but given that the commercial guys have hijacked BCA to the extent that they are trying to force their way into every access agreement that they can, that clearly wasn't going to be a runner.

This is a very worrying situation that has the potential to completely destabilise British caving to the benefit of the few.

 

[Smiley Alan]

There are two ways of looking at this: One is yours, the other is a concern that if CNCC were to lose control then perchance the landowners, in seeing that there was money to be made, would start levying significant charges on ordinary cavers.

no theres lots of ways of looking at it . not jsut two

for starters you say if cncc were to lose control . well have'nt we seen in the last cople of years many exampels were cncc is not in control - eg if they were then people would'nt be going caving without permits . Id say cncc are'nt in control any more than people let them be . generally i do think they do a good job tho .

2nd ; when reading the minutes it looks like cncc have told the landowners they should charge more to comercial cavers so if they do start to charge ?? then mebbe cncc put the idea into there heads in the 1st place .

what do you mean be  ' singificant charges on ordinary cavers ' ? there are lots of caves where cavers pay a resonable entry fee so if the landowners want ?? why should'nt cavers pay a bit - it wont be as much as you reckon . i think your trying to put the frigteners on .

bca has said it belives landowners have the ultimate right to say who goes caving on there land . this means bca accepts that commecial cavers can make there own arrangments with landowners for sure . i reckon it is more likely companys will talk to landowners specially if bca /cncc are making it hard for them to visit caves , not less likely .

This is a very worrying situation that has the potential to completely destabilise British caving to the benefit of the few.

yes it is worrying becos lots of cavers started when htey were taken caving at school . if companys cannot use caves then kids will miss out and after 20yrs there wont be any young cavers . did'nt bca and hiddenearth say we need lots of young cavers . where will they come from if they are'nt aloud to go caving ?

 

[Smiley Alan]

Page 22 of the CNCC minutes (September meeting), 2nd paragraph;


"Using the existing structure within the CNCC, the CNCC will administer the additional commercial permit. The procedure will be; commercial group requests from the Access Officer a permit and states the intended group use of that permit using the definitions ?types of commercial caving? appendix A. "

will the commercial group  need to be members of CNCC to apply for a CNCC permit ?

if they wont then does that mean its not far off a time when non-club DIMs will be able to visit CNCC sites ?

Why does no one read the proposal?

The first paragraph describes the creation of a new class of CNCC member club - Commercial Groups. So it's no to your second question. In fact, the concept of the CNCC Commercial Group membership is not new, as it existed prior to the creation of BCA.

sorry . ive read it now Glenn .

 

[graham]

yes it is worrying becos lots of cavers started when htey were taken caving at school . if companys cannot use caves then kids will miss out and after 20yrs there wont be any young cavers . did'nt bca and hiddenearth say we need lots of young cavers . where will they come from if they are'nt aloud to go caving ?

I would be interested to see some decent research done on this. I would hazard a guess that more committed cavers come via the universities than via commercial groups. I don't know, as the research hasn't been done, but until it is, I am of the opinion that this justification for the commercial boys doesn't actually add up.

Doubtless this post will be followed by anecdotes from those who did come into caving this way. Please note two things:

I have not said that nobody comes into caving through this route.

I have not said that anyone should not be allowed to go caving.

I could argue that the overall number of cavers has fallen in inverse proportion to the number of CICs and LCMLs that have been trained over the past 20 odd years. There does seem to be a correlation here; I am not, at this point, saying that there is also a causal relationship, as I don't know. I do believe it's worth thinking about, though.

 

[badger]

firstly I do think that BCA, CSCC and CNCC do a lot more work which most of cavers never see or hear off.
where does one draw the line with commercial cavers, guides or leaders for youth groups, where the leaders have there costs covered by the groups they take underground, one could argue whilst they do not make any money they are technically getting paid.
for land owners charging cavers to use the land to cave (and generally do not have a problem with goodwill fees as long as reasonable) but when the land is crow with a cave I wonder the leagalities, and if the land owner is going to make an extra charge for commercial cavers how then does this effect mountain leaders who get paid to take groups onto crow land, and not sure if climbers are covered under crow same way as cavers or walkers, but if they are under the same rules as walkers then do commercial climbers then have to pay to lead climbs?

 

[badger]

the other point was going to make, in my experience, it seems to me that clubs outside of the dales generally follow the access agreements in place, whilst local dales cavers just go caving without the relevant permits.
and before everyone gets on my back my observations could be completely wrong, maybe local cavers/clubs have some sort of local agreement and have annual permits

 

[Bottlebank]

I hadn't intended to open a can or worms with my original question, but that's life!

the other point was going to make, in my experience, it seems to me that clubs outside of the dales generally follow the access agreements in place, whilst local dales cavers just go caving without the relevant permits.

Badger, I think if you amended that to say "whilst local dales cavers frequently just go caving without permits" then I couldn't agree more, and I think one of the main reasons for that is largely the ridiculous three month rule, OK this has improved now re Casterton but Leck still suffers it.

I wonder if there's any chance of bringing Leck into line with Casterton - i.e. which as far as I know is that email permits can be issued upto a day or two before?

 

[Mr Fell]

Permits for Leck can be issued at short notice if there is availability.

 

[exsumper]

Glen
Still waiting for an answer as to why the instructors and commercial organisations who have been trespassing on Leck and Casterton Fells, havent had their cic certificates revoked b the BCA.

 

[Smiley Alan]

mebbe becos there to busy trying to round up and put all the club cavers who have been  underground withuot permits in front of a firing squad first .

 

[Pitlamp]

the other point was going to make, in my experience, it seems to me that clubs outside of the dales generally follow the access agreements in place, whilst local dales cavers just go caving without the relevant permits.

I'm a local Dales caver and I do go caving under the CNCC permit system. There are many other local cavers like me. 

Hasn't this all been gone through already in a long and at times not entirely friendly discussion elsewhere?

NigR, old buddy - for someone who lives hundreds of miles away (and I've sadly not had the opportunity to go caving with in the Dales for, what - 30 years?) - it always surprises me how you always seem to be such a prominent comment poster on Dales access issues. Have you got some secret project going on up here which we don't know about?! 

 

[graham]

Glen
Still waiting for an answer as to why the instructors and commercial organisations who have been trespassing on Leck and Casterton Fells, havent had their cic certificates revoked b the BCA.

Alex

Whilst I think this is a valid question, I am not sure that it is fair to direct it at Glenn, who is not responsible for these matters within BCA. I suspect that you'd be better aiming it at the BCA Secretary or the Training Officer.

 

[Glenn]

Glen
Still waiting for an answer as to why the instructors and commercial organisations who have been trespassing on Leck and Casterton Fells, havent had their cic certificates revoked b the BCA.

Do you really think that I have nothing better to do than sit in front of a PC all day and respond to you? Well guess what, I have a life and currently, after a long day travelling, it's here, and my plans for the next seven days do not include much time with a PC.

Glenn

via the Speleo Vercors wifi LAN at La Jarjatte-en-Vercors
www.speleo-vercors.org

 

[damian]

I suspect that you'd be better aiming it at the BCA Secretary

In my experience BCA has no interest in being some kind of quasi police force and is not in any way interested in, for example, hiding on fells to catch unsuspecting non-permit-holding cavers. In general we seek to be low-key. If, however, a direct complaint is made to BCA, we obviously have a duty to investigate. Fortunately I am aware of very few such complaints in the years I have been involved with BCA and all there have been have been investigated and, if necessary, appropriate action taken. In the case of access to Leck and Casterton Fells, I am fairly confident in saying all the complaints we have received have originated from CNCC and nowhere else. I am also pretty confident that there have been none relating to commercial cavers.

 

[Hammy]

Hey - guys - caving is fun- please remember!