CNCC resin anchor scheme (split from "Car Pot anchors" topic)

[georgenorth]

Just for the record, the anchors in Growling aren't Spits - they're Raumer stainless steel bolts (non self-drilling). They were installed in 2007 - I'm not sure if that means they were placed in a selfish, irresponsible and vandalistic way or not though 

FWIW, I agree with what Simon's said. If a pitch is going to get done with any sort of regularity (i.e. more than a couple of trips a decade!) then clearly placing resin anchors is by far the best option.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Just for the record, the anchors in Growling aren't Spits - they're Raumer stainless steel bolts (non self-drilling). They were installed in 2007 - I'm not sure if that means they were placed in a selfish, irresponsible and vandalistic way or not though 

FWIW, I agree with what Simon's said. If a pitch is going to get done with any sort of regularity (i.e. more than a couple of trips a decade!) then clearly placing resin anchors is by far the best option.

They were reported as being Spits and in my opinion that would be irresponsible. However, there was a period when the resin anchor scheme was not operating as well as it could have been. During that period cavers resorted to installing what they probably thought was the best option in the absence of available resin anchors and I think many cavers would think that was justified at that time. Unfortunately a considerable number (I guess several hundred) of unapproved anchors have been installed.

At present there is a small number of people working very hard on the overfacing task of making new installations, removing unapproved anchors, identifying and replacing loose anchors and the enormous amount of work that has to be done before any of that is possible. I am asking people to support the effort, to not install unapproved anchors and desist from arguing, countermanding and undermining the work.

 

[Alex]

But I don't think that's possible if we don't know how long it is going to be? Are you saying we can't do these caves for how long it is going to be, it could be 5 maybe 10 years? I am afraid I can't wait that long, I may not be able to do those caves in 10 years (I am coming up on my mid 30s).

Just for the record I have not put any bolts in any Yorkshire caves (on account of not owning a drill!) but have done quite a few on expos (through bolts only, and a few hand bolted spits when the drill battery dies).

I would volunteer to do them myself but I don't have the resources or the know how on how to place resin anchors. I assume the drill would be very expensive and I assume heavy to make the size of holes required. Can we get funding? If so then we can get more people on with this and get everything resin anchored. I would happily start resin anchoring these places though, its a good excuse to do some of those harder or lesser visited caves I still have not done yet!

 

[Simon Wilson]

Northern Caves tells me that the main exploration of Car Pot was done in 1948 when they would have been wearing woolen jumpers and using rope ladders made of hemp.

 

[ianball11]

Simon, how can Alex get involed with placing IC anchors? He has experience of placing bolts, is willing to tackle some tougher trips and is happy to volunteer, get him signed up!.  I cant see a get involved section on the IC anchor site?

 

[MarkS]

Simon, how can Alex get involed with placing IC anchors? He has experience of placing bolts, is willing to tackle some tougher trips and is happy to volunteer, get him signed up!.  I cant see a get involved section on the IC anchor site?

This seems a good start: "If you would like to know more about the work of the CNCC Technical Group or you would like some training to allow you to install anchors yourself, please contact Les Sykes of the CNCC Technical Group."

http://cncc.org.uk/fixed-aids/technical-group.php

Or presumably just asking Simon as the BCA E&T representative.

 

[Madness]

Simon. Who pays for the Bolt Product anchors? I know you are fitting your own design of anchor, but who is paying for the anchors fitted by other people?

If it's the CNCC, then could they not also fund a couple of rechargable drills?

From what you say, it appears that you have a monumental task ahead of you equipping caves with resin anchors and the only way to speed this up is by recruiting extra installers.

 

[Alex]

Yep supply the funding and training (I am sure there is some grant money available, from some government department somewhere?) and you will get a few more volunteers including me.

 

[MarkS]

Simon. Who pays for the Bolt Product anchors? I know you are fitting your own design of anchor, but who is paying for the anchors fitted by other people?

If it's the CNCC, then could they not also fund a couple of rechargable drills?

From what you say, it appears that you have a monumental task ahead of you equipping caves with resin anchors and the only way to speed this up is by recruiting extra installers.

http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=equipment_techniques:anchor_policy_2013.pdf

"BCA will re-imburse Regional Councils' expenses necessarily incurred in the placing of designated anchors in their region"

"In general, the E&T Committee will fund the direct costs of placing designated anchors, i.e. the purchase of designated anchors, resin, drills and similar equipment..."

 

[Simon Wilson]

Simon. Who pays for the Bolt Product anchors? I know you are fitting your own design of anchor, but who is paying for the anchors fitted by other people?

If it's the CNCC, then could they not also fund a couple of rechargable drills?

From what you say, it appears that you have a monumental task ahead of you equipping caves with resin anchors and the only way to speed this up is by recruiting extra installers.

Recruiting installers is not a problem. All of the installers have their own drill. The difficulties are far more complex.

 

[MJenkinson]

What are the issues Simon? You are seen as knowledgeable on this subject and so forgive me if you don't want to answer. but in the interest of open debate, we have someone here keen to get involved and help out - what are the issues? people don't want new anchors in harder caves? Landowners? I have no idea myself.

 

[owd git]

:-\ time for popcorn?

 

[Wayland Smith]

One of the biggest causes of dissent that I notice are
First, to bolt a pitch or not, This causes endless discussion here.
Then, How to rig a pitch, dry or wet, straight or deviations.
Again endless discussions.

I suspect that the bolters take a lot of flack whatever they do!  :-\

 

[topcat]

One of the biggest causes of dissent that I notice are
First, to bolt a pitch or not, This causes endless discussion here.
Then, How to rig a pitch, dry or wet, straight or deviations.
Again endless discussions.

I suspect that the bolters take a lot of flack whatever they do!  :-\

Rigged for SRT means rigged dry [or as dry as possible], using as many re belays or deviations as required.  Surely we can all agree on that?

 

[Simon Wilson]

What are the issues Simon? You are seen as knowledgeable on this subject and so forgive me if you don't want to answer. but in the interest of open debate, we have someone here keen to get involved and help out - what are the issues? people don't want new anchors in harder caves? Landowners? I have no idea myself.

It's complex and it's personal and I'm not discussing all of it in public. However, the main problem is that I designed, made and tested the IC anchor. We have almost run out and have to make another batch. At the moment that is entirely down to me and it involves an enormous amount of work and expense.

I would like the anchors to be made elsewhere and several people are working on that.

The last batch of 430 anchors was partly funded by the BCA but I get no recompense for time away from my work and other commitments. The installers have had no funding whatsoever and have paid for their hardware and consumables such as resin themselves.

The anchor project will be discussed at the next CNCC meeting. CNCC meetings are public and anybody is welcome to come along.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Rigged for SRT means rigged dry [or as dry as possible], using as many re belays or deviations as required.  Surely we can all agree on that?

Sorry I could not resist.  Is that for a one in ten year flood event, one in a hundred or one in a thousand?  Oh and what is the standard arm length?  Plus of course, agreement between cavers is a rare thing.   

But more seriously, I can confirm that Simon has put an incredible amount of effort into the IC anchor project.  From my perspective the key to moving forward is finding a manufacturer to take over the production process at a sensible price.  If anyone has an inside line to companies which could take on this business (laser cutting, lathe machining and finishing), then please please PM me & Simon. 

Placing anchors is the responsibility of Regional Caving Councils so as Simon says, go along to the next CNCC meeting, see http://cncc.org.uk/meetings/.

 

[andrewmcleod]

This is a fun photo

https://www.facebook.com/dorsetboltfund/photos/a.286272991455887.67758.285654791517707/1156212127795298/?type=3

It is (according to the caption) ?1000s worth of what look like BP anchors. I took it from the Dorset Bolt Fund's facebook group; by my extremely brief counting there are most of 200 bolts there by my reckoning. The Dorset Bolt Fund, like virtually all climbing bolt funds, only replaces old bolts rather than placing new ones; virtually all new climbing bolts are placed and paid for by individual climbers out of their own pockets. Equally they buy their own drills. There is no national bolt scheme (for placing new bolts), there is no bolt approval process, there is no training. People place by consensus so it is mostly new resins, but through bolts are also placed. Some of the bolts (particularly on Portland) are homemade resin U-staples, but are still more bomber than the rock normally!

Climbers place way, way more bolts than cavers do. Caving is a niche activity for resin bolting; there are far fewer cavers and they use far fewer bolts than (sport) climbers. Consequently I can understand why a) it isn't completely unaffordable for the BCA to buy bolts, and b) while it is clearly time-consuming (and probably reinventing the wheel in my eyes) the BCA can spend the time testing anchors.

So if the problem is a lack of cash for anchors, then cavers should put there hands in their pockets (I have donated to climbing bolt funds and would happily donate to caving ones).
If the problem is the supply of IC anchors, then use something else? There are plenty of other resin bolts available that have been used in climbing for years.
If any one volunteer is overloaded, delegate to others (the anchor project should not be reliant on any one person).

In my eyes the only acceptable problem is the absence of volunteers, and again in my eyes if this is the problem then anyone who complains can be assumed to be volunteering, right?

 

[MJenkinson]

Did I not read earlier that the BCA will reimburse regional councils for bolts? Can't CNCC just send them an invoice? I am obviously missing something. I know CNCC meetings are public, I have been to a few as club rep, but admittedly not for a while.  There is one this weekend but I am in Mendip.  Will be attending AGM though.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Did I not read earlier that the BCA will reimburse regional councils for bolts? Can't CNCC just send them an invoice? I am obviously missing something. I know CNCC meetings are public, I have been to a few as club rep, but admittedly not for a while.  There is one this weekend but I am in Mendip.  Will be attending AGM though.

The CNCC are not involved financially; all they do is approve the installations.

 

[Alex]

There is no national bolt scheme (for placing new bolts), there is no bolt approval process, there is no training. People place by consensus so it is mostly new resins, but through bolts are also placed. Some of the bolts (particularly on Portland) are homemade resin U-staples, but are still more bomber than the rock normally!

I think that is because climbing bolts are even-more controversial than caving bolts! Placing bolts in climbing world is generally seen as a bad thing as they should be using cams etc. Whereas in caving world we need them to actually do our sport.

I could put my hand in my pocket for a few bolts but there is no way I have the finances on top of everything else I spend on to buy a drill for it.