Commercial caving

Kenilworth

New member
No doubt his next proposals ought to be to abolish the BMC and similar institutions, close the climbing huts and ban mountain guiding. After all, what dedicated conservationist would wish to see human beings defile places such as the Matterhorn and Mont Blanc? 

No, I am most interested in caves because I see in them a globally unique opportunity. They are easily accessible to all, but in some places completely untouched.

So caves are time travel.

I asked earlier whether or not we would prefer to have grown up differently as cultures in our lands. The "caving community" demonstrates that, no, they would like to bring the industrial/military/commercial storm of the surface, cultivated over thousands of years, into every newfound cave. What a leap!

 

 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
Kenilworth said:
I asked earlier whether or not we would prefer to have grown up differently as cultures in our lands. The "caving community" demonstrates that, no, they would like to bring the industrial/military/commercial storm of the surface, cultivated over thousands of years, into every newfound cave. What a leap!

Stop using vague assertions and bland statements. What do you mean? Give a specific example of how the behaviour of cavers acting within the UK-agreed consensus of responsible caving differs from what you would believe. Justify your statement. Explain how it relates to the 'industrial/military/commercial storm'. It would probably help to explain whatever the 'industrial/military/commercial' storm is.

You also haven't responded to my point that the 'virgin cave' you are so found of is precisely where the most irreparable damage can occur, and in most cases will occur even for the most careful explorer. I reiterate that some damage can be justified; some cannot.
 

badger

Active member
this thread initially asked the question of people making a living of caving.
which those of in the uk I believe do not make a huge amount of money, and the ones I know all have to supplement there professional caving with earning money doing other work. Show caves too which I would say comes under making money from caves and caving also seem to have to supplement entrance fees with other attractions.
Don't know about how the figures stack up elsewhere in the world.
as for Kenilworth's post they ramble so much it really is hard to actually fully understand what his real beef with the world of caving is. If you come out with the obvious which is the only true conservation of caves, or deep sea/mountains/space is for us humans not to go there in the first place. You get shot down as misunderstanding what has been written,  :confused:
I have been very lucky within my caving to have been one of a few people to visit certain passages within cave systems. some there is no reason other than difficulty of getting to them would not have any issues with increased traffic, others if it received 20 cavers the passage would be damaged irreversibly.
how long would it take somewhere like goatchurch to recover if caving was banned. how long would it take
 

Oceanrower

Active member
To Kenilworth,

I'm have a habit of being blunt. I certainly don't have your degree of elocution and I don't know how much say you have of what goes on in the caving community in your own country but as far as in goes in ours,

Please feel free to f*** Off and mind your own business.
 

JasonC

Well-known member
Oceanrower said:
To Kenilworth,
......
Please feel free to f*** Off and mind your own business.
;) don't beat about the bush, say what you mean, man !
If you think Kenilworth is trolling, then ignore him, don't feed him...

To Kenilworth, I say:
1. Obviously, if no-one went caving, then caves would be 100% conserved.  The more visitors a cave has, the less it will be conserved.  Indisputable.
2. But there will always be a desire (in some) to appreciate the natural wonders of the world.  In our case, there will always be folk (a few) who want to explore caves.
3. That being so, is it better that they discover and blunder into caves all by themselves, or under the guidance of someone more experienced, whether that's a professional guide, or a reputable club.  I would say the latter - there's a greater chance that the newcomer will get good advice this way, will take more care and better appreciate the damage he could inadvertently cause.
4.  That said, point 1 still stands.  There is a good argument against aggressively 'marketing' caving (eg, trying to persuade people to take it up rather than climbing, skiing or extreme ironing say) - but then I'm not aware that anyone has ever done so.  The nature of caving is in itself enough to put off most people.

So, yes, 'commercial' caving is fine as long as conducted responsibly, and all the people I know who make a little money out of cave guiding are very responsible.
If you don't want to do it, fine, but your conscience isn't necessarily a guide to judge others' activities.
 

pwhole

Well-known member
Whilst I don't necessarily agree with what Kenilworth posts here, some of the responses are a bit depressing, even with 'previous'. Forums are for starting and maintaining discussions on topics, not ending them. If you don't like what is posted, then disagree by all means, but telling the poster to 'f-off' is not on, and is certainly putting me off sharing my thoughts in future. Part of the reason I don't post much of my project activity on here is because I don't trust that many underground visitors to respect what we've found. Artifacts stolen (ruining historical analysis), thoughtless damage to delicate underground structures etc. - it's happened enough times now. We've even gated one of our secret digs now, since we found glow-stick wrappers inside the venue last year.

So I'd like to read Kenilworth's posts, if that's what he (or she) wants to do with his or her time. It's only philosophy after all, and we're all meant to be able to do that in complete freedom.
 

Oceanrower

Active member
I'm sorry if I upset anyone (including Kenilworth) and I probably shouldn't have used that language.

I just get really upset when someone from the outside (America) seems to know exactly how WE are doing it wrong despite there being a gulf between how we do it and they do.

Can I blame alcohol?
 

Kenilworth

New member
JasonC - I follow and respect every word of your post, I simply remain unconvinced of a couple of the points. First of all, I am not convinced that learning caving under the guidance of a club will necessarily result in a caver being more careful. Here's why:

In south-central WV, USA, are a number of caves that are only traveled by Proper Cavers. They are locked, and some only accessible for survey or "scientific" trips. They are badly damaged; many speleothems broken, unnecessary flagging everywhere, calcite floors unnecessarily muddied and crushed, disorganized, illegible, and obsolete survey flagging everywhere, sculpted mud, old scaling poles lying about to rust, obsolete fixed aid and bolts.

In south-west VA, USA, are a number of caves undocumented by cavers, but well-known to locals. Many of these, especially those close to town, have very badly vandalized entrance areas, but some are very well-guarded and well cared for by their owners. Some of these owners have never been in their caves, but are careful about who they allow in. Others explore the cave themselves, and some have gone to great pains to attempt to "leave no trace". In general, and especially in remote sections of passage, the caves outside of the influence of the caving community are much more completely preserved.

So there is material evidence that some of the most experienced and institutionalized cavers, while not typically the sort to write in spray paint, are more blas?, and cause more damage than others (like myself, my father and my grandfather, who never knew that caving clubs existed until about ten years ago) who crafted their own cave conservation ethic from scratch.

I'm also unconvinced that caving is not aggressively marketed. It is obviously not marketed in the mainstream, in the same way as most other commercial products, but it is marketed by university clubs, and by a large number of individual cavers, who are constantly encouraged by NSS to "grow the sport", and who spread tales of their exploits on the internet and in person with something approaching evangelistic fervor.


 

Kenilworth

New member
Oceanrower said:
I'm sorry if I upset anyone (including Kenilworth) and I probably shouldn't have used that language.

I just get really upset when someone from the outside (America) seems to know exactly how WE are doing it wrong despite there being a gulf between how we do it and they do.

Can I blame alcohol?

No, but you can blame inattention.

As I said earlier, I have backed away from commenting specifically about British caving. I know that there are important differences in our cultures. While I believe that much of what I'm writing no doubt applies to the UK also, I'm writing with the US in mind. All this is appearing on your forum because there is no longer a US-based virtual place to actively discuss caving.
 

Kenilworth

New member
pwhole said:
Whilst I don't necessarily agree with what Kenilworth posts here, some of the responses are a bit depressing, even with 'previous'. Forums are for starting and maintaining discussions on topics, not ending them. If you don't like what is posted, then disagree by all means, but telling the poster to 'f-off' is not on, and is certainly putting me off sharing my thoughts in future. Part of the reason I don't post much of my project activity on here is because I don't trust that many underground visitors to respect what we've found. Artifacts stolen (ruining historical analysis), thoughtless damage to delicate underground structures etc. - it's happened enough times now. We've even gated one of our secret digs now, since we found glow-stick wrappers inside the venue last year.

So I'd like to read Kenilworth's posts, if that's what he (or she) wants to do with his or her time. It's only philosophy after all, and we're all meant to be able to do that in complete freedom.

Thanks pwhole. I don't mind abuse, but it is depressing to get such insubstantial responses. For your sake, and Newstuff's too I suppose, I am a he.

Since I'm here, I wonder if anyone could tell me what are the rules of the word "whilst"? Is it interchangeable with "while"? Is it distracting or improper to use either of these in various places when the audience is British?
 

droid

Active member
For myself, you can use whatever words you like, but you might get a rather more positive response if your posts weren't essays.

There's much to commend conciseness.
 

NewStuff

New member
Kenilworth said:
But I like essays.
Your "Audience" does not. I could pontificate on points below and expand it greatly, but it would be pointless.

You may get more traction and debate if you were to the point. Your own rambling has indeed said that such rambling leads us to "misinterpret" you.

That said, Most of what you are saying about disbanding the NSS (and by extension, the BCA) is rubbish.

After all, who would orchestrate this sudden reduction in caving activity you seem to think will happen? Without some sort of governing body, it's a free-for-all, is it not? No education or guidance. I'm certainly not a fan of red-tape, needless access restrictions (as anyone on this forum can tell you, I'm rather loud-mouthed about it), but I don't see a realistic way for caving to have a lesser impact without such a body.
 

royfellows

Well-known member
Mr K
I am not trying to take this off thread, merely wondering if it would please you to start a new one on the subject of your conservation views on mine exploration, in particular the re opening of say workings that have remained undisturbed for maybe over a century.

This is my own particular thing, hence the seeking of enlightenment and the benefit of your wisdom.

Take your time on thinking about it, no hurry, should you decide to be so kind.

By the way, I like your opening post where possibly several A4 pages philosophize on your occupation as a carpet fitter. I am tempted to copy and frame it.
 

Kenilworth

New member
After all, who would orchestrate this sudden reduction in caving activity you seem to think will happen? Without some sort of governing body, it's a free-for-all, is it not? No education or guidance. I'm certainly not a fan of red-tape, needless access restrictions (as anyone on this forum can tell you, I'm rather loud-mouthed about it), but I don't see a realistic way for caving to have a lesser impact without such a body.

I do not believe that any sudden reduction is possible. I believe that caver numbers are declining, and I hope to convince a few people that this is ok, that eventually NSS will die a natural death or switch its focus and scope. A free-for-all is fine with me. I do not need any education or guidance from a hobby-club.
 

NewStuff

New member
Kenilworth said:
After all, who would orchestrate this sudden reduction in caving activity you seem to think will happen? Without some sort of governing body, it's a free-for-all, is it not? No education or guidance. I'm certainly not a fan of red-tape, needless access restrictions (as anyone on this forum can tell you, I'm rather loud-mouthed about it), but I don't see a realistic way for caving to have a lesser impact without such a body.

I do not believe that any sudden reduction is possible. I believe that caver numbers are declining, and I hope to convince a few people that this is ok, that eventually NSS will die a natural death or switch its focus and scope. A free-for-all is fine with me. I do not need any education or guidance from a hobby-club.

So, NSS and BCA ceases to be, and clubs, as you've mentioned you want them gone as well, and your free-for-all commences.

Who stops the noobs from trampling through everything? Taking momento's? Killing themselves in any number of ways?

*YOU* may not need the BCA, NSS or clubs to educate or guide you, but noobs certainly do. You strike me as an exceedingly selfish man, and I'm very glad you have no influence whatsoever on this island.
 

Kenilworth

New member
Who stops the noobs from trampling through everything? Taking momento's? Killing themselves in any number of ways?

Nobody, same as now.

*YOU* may not need the BCA, NSS or clubs to educate or guide you, but noobs certainly do.

No they don't. They need initiative, patience and commitment.
 

Fulk

Well-known member
All this is appearing on your forum because there is no longer a US-based virtual place to actively discuss caving.

Sorry, Kenilworth, I just 'Googled' (actually, I used DuckDuckGo) Cavechat.org . . . and it's still there. So what dow you mean in the above quote?
 

NewStuff

New member
Kenilworth said:
Who stops the noobs from trampling through everything? Taking momento's? Killing themselves in any number of ways?

Nobody, same as now.

So, no-one teaches noobs anything now? I'm assuming you have a mental retardation that stops you from processing logical thoughts. It is quite categorically not the case in the UK.

Kenilworth said:
*YOU* may not need the BCA, NSS or clubs to educate or guide you, but noobs certainly do.
No they don't. They need initiative, patience and commitment.

Who teaches them that, within a cave environment? If you have your way, there isn't anybody.
 

Kenilworth

New member
Fulk said:
All this is appearing on your forum because there is no longer a US-based virtual place to actively discuss caving.

Sorry, Kenilworth, I just 'Googled' (actually, I used DuckDuckGo) Cavechat.org . . . and it's still there. So what dow you mean in the above quote?

No one, or almost no one, uses it anymore. I assume that Facebook or other social media (which I don't use) are more exciting.
 
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