Concreting Drws Cefn

[Ian Adams]

From someone who has been wholly entrenched with an anti-gate opinion, I have now been persuaded by various arguments (and finally by Mel's post above - thank you) and I now favour a gate system as suggested by various people and most recently by Mel.

I think the Derbyshire key system is a perfectly reasonable compromise.



Ian

 

[martinm]

From someone who has been wholly entrenched with an anti-gate opinion, I have now been persuaded by various arguments (and finally by Mel's post above - thank you) and I now favour a gate system as suggested by various people and most recently by Mel.

I think the Derbyshire key system is a perfectly reasonable compromise.



Ian

Thank you Ian.  I should also point out that Adam (AR on here, I think) is the conservation officer for PDHMS, but also does (or organises) access work where it's needed. He's been involved in getting gates repaired and also cleaning graffiti from mines in the Matlock area.

This all sort of goes through DCA, but mainly just for funding (from DCA/BCA/NE) and so everybody knows what's going on. DCA doesn't 'control' anything, but we all work together to try and maintain reasonable access while at the same time taking conservation issues into account. It works well!

We have very good relations with NE, the EA, the NT, Staffs & Derbys bat groups, etc. too. Best to get everybody involved and keep everybody informed, that's we we have our twice yearly UCF (underground conservation forum) meetings. They're generally very constructive.

 

[Rhys]

It sounds like it all works well for you up there.

I'm guessing that in the Peak you don't have one group cavers determined to maintain a single point of access to a cave while a second group of cavers is determined to have multiple entrances to that cave. Unfortunately, as Graham pointed out elsewhere, there is no compromise position between these standpoints. So we have a stalemate situation which has existed for at least 15 years.

It might be that a "legal" confrontation with CROW thrown into the mix might sort this situation out once and for all. But I doubt it! ;-)

Rhys

 

[Ian Adams]

...  one group cavers determined to maintain a single point of access to a cave while a second group of cavers is determined to have multiple entrances to that cave.

Rhys

Seems to me that is precisely the problem. Nicely put Rhys 

Ian

 

[Peter Burgess]

How does the CCC manage to represent the interests of ALL cavers in Wales in that case? It cannot.

 

[droid]

There's a lot of people that are all for Democracy in Caving, as long as that democracy decides to do exactly what they want it to do.

If it doesn't, it becomes a tyranny in their eyes.

 

[Rhys]

...  one group cavers determined to maintain a single point of access to a cave while a second group of cavers is determined to have multiple entrances to that cave.

Rhys

Seems to me that is precisely the problem. Nicely put Rhys 

Ian

Group hug!

 

[Peter Burgess]

Unfortunately with a number of the CCC executive being quite vocal on what they believe should happen, it is not really possible for them to mediate between the cavers who want one entrance and the cavers who want two (assuming both sides would want this)  as it is impossible for them to claim to have no view either way.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

A few observations I would like to make...

It's been suggested that it is insulting and patronising to suggest that landowners do not know their own mind.  When it comes to caving related matters landowners are usually receptive to the advice and views of the caving community.  Let us imagine that the opening of Drws Cefn had been greeted with unanimous approval by local cavers, clubs and representative bodies, that the landowner had been advised that this was a wonderful development for exploratory caving, for sport caving, and a God send for potential rescue...  Would we now be faced with the prospect of a cave entrance being filled with concrete?

Moving on to the OFD Top Entrance question....  Yes, there are a few cavers who wish history could be re-written and that OFD 2 could be the preserve for a minority of elite cavers undertaking 10+ hour trips.  I think these people are utterly selfish.  What about the 1000s of cavers who have enjoyed this wonderful cave over the last nearly 50 years?  What about the pleasure generations of cavers have derived from enjoying the fantastic through trips from Top to Cwm Dwr or One? 

OFD and Draenen are both, by their nature, multi entrance caves.  The 'wilderness experience' of the few is achieved by denying this reality and depriving the majority of potential trips and experiences that would be of the highest quality.  Ogof Draenen could experience a renaissance of exploration, and quite possibly achieve the status of longest cave in the UK.

So here is the situation - Drws Cefn has been open for several years and is, presumably, occasionally visited.  What's the problem?  Why take these extreme measures to resolve a problem that isn't?  I wonder if this is why....  It must be a strange situation for the small group who are still active in the cave.  They have to cave for two hours on the way in, knowing they don't need to, and then the same again on the way out, always aware that they could shave two hours off the trip.  But they can't actually use the entrance can they?  Not after their crusade against it. But it's there... always there at the back of the mind, when staggering, already exhausted, down Elliptic Passage, that there's an exit 10 minutes away....    Solution - fill it, concrete it, unmake it.

If the landowner wants it closed, then let him do it, and if he's not sufficiently motivated to bother, then let the cave stay open.  That being the case it would be time for others to swallow their pride, use the new entrance, and quite possibly embark on a new wave of exploration that will extent their beloved 'wilderness' into new frontiers.

 

[AR]

There's a lot of people that are all for Democracy in Caving, as long as that democracy decides to do exactly what they want it to do.

Or they don't know what they want  until the people who are fillling posts on councils because no-one else would do something they don't like at which point they start screaming....

 

[droid]

Good point Adam.... :

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Excellent and informative post by Andy.

 

[Tony_B]

Moving on to the OFD Top Entrance question....  Yes, there are a few cavers who wish history could be re-written and that OFD 2 could be the preserve for a minority of elite cavers undertaking 10+ hour trips.  I think these people are utterly selfish.  What about the 1000s of cavers who have enjoyed this wonderful cave over the last nearly 50 years?  What about the pleasure generations of cavers have derived from enjoying the fantastic through trips from Top to Cwm Dwr or One? 

I came late to this thread, and on reading the earlier posts I was going to make exactly this point. Andy got there first.

I'm aware that some of those who were involved in the opening of Top Entrance have subsequently expressed some regret that this was done. The caving purist in me used to have some sympathy with that point-of-view, and indeed I have quoted this in the past. However, as an SWCC member of nearly thirty years' standing, the uncomfortable truth is that SWCC would be nothing like the club it is today had Top Entrance not been opened. How many visiting clubs would use our HQ for weekend visits if through-trips involving Top Entrance were not available? How many of our members would have joined SWCC, or remained members, if Top Entrance didn't exist?

With Dan-yr-Ogof frequently flooded during the winter months, caving options in the Swansea Valley would be very limited if access to Ogof Ffynnon Ddu were only via OFD 1 and Cwm Dwr.

I'm not sure that the same arguments can be used with regard to Ogof Draenan/Drws Cefn, but the point needed making. 

 

[bograt]

Well said Tony_B, certainly my most memorable trips down there in the '70's & early '80's involved top entrance through trips , the Ancient Brit would have been down a few quid too

 

[Blakethwaite]

But what may or may not apply to one cave ought not as a general principle to apply to all caves surely? Where do you stop? Remove all constrictions? Wheelchair ramps down to the deepest & darkest parts (being only slightly facetious)? Not everyone can get everywhere, me particularly, that's just the way things are.

 

[bograt]

Wheelchair ramps down to the deepest & darkest parts

YES PLEASE, suit me in my present condition!! (need someone to push the chair though)

 

[NigR]

I'm not sure that the same arguments can be used with regard to Ogof Draenan/Drws Cefn, but the point needed making.

The major similarity between OFD Top Entrance and Drws Cefn is that they were both originally opened up in order to enable exploration within the respective caves to progress at a reasonable pace.

In fact, the sole reasoning behind the connection of Drws Cefn to the main system was to further the exploration of the cave, which had been in a state of almost total stagnation for a considerable period.

Our intention was not to merely create another through trip and this was strongly stressed at the time. Perhaps now is as good an opportunity as any to emphasise this point for the benefit of those who might not be familiar with the events of five years ago.

Make no mistake, it is the (potential) exploration of the cave that is the root cause of all these problems, absolutely nothing else. Anyone who is closely involved (on either side of the wire) is acutely aware of this fact and has been from the very outset.

 

[bograt]

The major similarity between OFD Top Entrance and Drws Cefn is that they were both originally opened up in order to enable exploration within the respective caves to progress at a reasonable pace.

In fact, the sole reasoning behind the connection of Drws Cefn to the main system was to further the exploration of the cave, which had been in a state of almost total stagnation for a considerable period.

Aah, much like Garden Path in Lathkill Head, at the request of the landowner this is access restricted for research and scientific study puposes only, neither DCA nor any other body have any intentions of sealing it in any way. This section of the system is accessible via other routes but not easy.

Your statement implies that this entrance to O.Draenen  is now redundant and that there is no more need for it as all exploration using that entrance has been covered, are you sure?, who is to say?

 

[Tony_B]

Where do you stop? Remove all constrictions? Wheelchair ramps down to the deepest & darkest parts (being only slightly facetious)? Not everyone can get everywhere, me particularly, that's just the way things are.

I've used exactly that argument against things like additional fixed aids, in Ogof Ffynnon Ddu and elsewhere. But that's not quite the same as the issue at hand here. With regard to Drws Cefn, Nig R has said that the additional entrance was created specifically to facilitate exploration at the further reaches. That's not the same as making caving easier. Top Entrance was - so I believe - opened for much the same reason and a by-product of opening that up was to create a number of options for sporting through-trips that have been popular with cavers ever since. 

 

[NigR]

Your statement implies that this entrance to O.Draenen  is now redundant and that there is no more need for it as all exploration using that entrance has been covered, are you sure?, who is to say?

Sorry, Bograt. You have completely misunderstood what I have said, in fact your interpretation is almost the complete opposite to what it should have been. Did you read all my post? Perhaps it is my fault for trying to be too diplomatic.

Drws Cefn is far from being redundant and there is every need for it to remain open in order to help realise the full potential of the cave. Up until now it has hardly been utilised to even a miniscule fraction of its capacity. Exploration has scarcely begun, never mind being completed. This is precisely why the controlling clique of the PDCMG are so opposed to Drws Cefn as an entrance and are determined to see it obliterated from the face of the landscape for all eternity.

There you go, is that any clearer?