Conservation priorities

[bograt]

Fair point Nick. 

 

[Leclused]

I think in terms of vulnerability fauna, sediments and formations would be viewed as most at risk, and therefore higher priority for protection.

No intention to mis-quote you Brains, just highlighting you mention of "sediments".

Forgive my ignorance, but simply put, why are sediments important? I know they are because I've been told they are, but nobody has ever explained why.

Is it simply a point of interest, part of the history of the cave, or is there some scientific importance too?

About the why sediments need to protected is already explained very well. The when is very simple. This is the responsability of the explorers.

From the first step on the explorers should secure a path by taping to avoid damage to sediments and mud banks.

see "the floor also deserves our respecte"  page  in the following presentation http://www.scavalon.be/avalonuk/protection/protection_DIY.htm

I know I've posted the link already several times but every time I feel myself obliged to bring it up again.

Some other conservation information can be found on our club page : http://www.scavalon.be/avalonuk/av06.htm

 

[Kenilworth]

Thanks for your responses so far.

I believe that the questions are clear enough for anyone to figure out and offer an opinion on.

It is fascinating that so many seem uncomfortable, unwilling, or who feel unqualified to talk about a subject that should be an important part of the consciousness and personal (not club, cultural, etc.) values of every caver.

PeteHall- Your first post is exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for. Opinions from cavers.

You all know by now that I have my own opinions about these things, but I continue to wrestle with them. I'm not here to argue about conservation with anyone, at least not at this time, though I disagree with some statements made on this thread, including some from people whose conservation efforts I genuinely respect (Leclused  ). No I want to hear out cavers, and I want to know where their opinions come from. There are fundamental problems with the current state of cave conservation, and understanding the causes is important if there are to be any solutions.

 

[Clive G]

I know of a cave that suffered "an unfortunate collapse of the entrance" forcing access via an alternative and very narrow connection from a nearby cave, thus conserving a recenetly discovered and rather delicate and beautiful area.

I fit through the alternative route, so don't need to worry, but while effective,  is a "fat-selector" really a fair means of access control?

If you're too large to get through or past a particular obstacle in a cave then go on a diet or go somewhere else! There's nothing fairer than natural selection . . . There are many, many caves you can go and visit in the UK and abroad which don't have significant obstacles to bar progress, but require varying caving skills and stamina to negotiate successfully.

Not everyone is suited to Pippikin Pot ( http://www.rrcpc.org.uk/easegill/text/pippikin.htm ) in the Yorkshire Dales, but by all means give it a go to see where you stand in respect to tight places underground.

If the original explorers have done their work well then most cavers of usual build will find it possible to make progress, albeit some 'mind over matter' will be necessary for those tending towards the 'portly' side. So, I'm not advocating leaving everything as tight as, say, the bedding plane in Ogof Rhyd Sych ( http://www.ogof.org.uk/ogof-rhyd-sych.html ), but removing challenging obstacles can help let those with less care and attention for the condition of the cave and its features to blaze on through regardless, instead of being deterred through lack of caving experience and mental preparation.

I once took a sizeable Russian caver through a small high-level connecting passage and it wasn't until I was squeezing past the single rocking boulder in the middle of the passage that I realised, from his build, he probably didn't stand a chance of following me through and we'd instead have to go back out the way we came in . . . Well, if you have the right mental preparation and attitude, as Vladimir did, you just worm your way through, using mind over matter, as he did, an inch at a time, and, much to my amazement, he pulled himself through and we then able to complete the intended and imposing round-trip exit, with no more horrible squeezes!

On the other hand, a particularly large caver, caving with a certain university caving club, decided to blindly press upwards and onwards through the Corkscrew Squeeze in Ogof Pen Eryr in the Llangattock quarries, in spite of the suggestions to the contrary made by his companions in the passage ahead of him.

Ultimately, 'Pavarotti', as we called him during the subsequent cave-rescue operation, could make neither further progress upwards nor back downwards again and became firmly trapped in the squeeze. This did not impress his fellow cavers in the chamber above yet, fortunately, the group had the insight to have one more caver at the rear, who was able to exit the cave and call cave rescue. It took us 2-3 hours to get him (and his caving companions) safely back out again. And Maureen's (from the Traveller's Rest) bottle of Fairy Liquid washing-up liquid proved most helpful and efficacious!

And the moral of the story is . . .

Blast the Corkscrew Squeeze away . . . I think not!

Man-made mines, however, are a completely different 'kettle of fish' and remedial work done to halt the return of mines to their natural state of solid rock, or make progress through collapsed sections more spacious and thereby safer, can only be applauded.

 

[PeteHall]

If you're too large to get through or past a particular obstacle in a cave then go on a diet or go somewhere else! There's nothing fairer than natural selection . . .

I couldn't agree more!

In the case I mention, it was just rather a coincidence that the easy entrance "collapsed" soon after the discovery of pretties (which are still very well conserved as a result).

Perhaps what I should have said is this:

Is it a fair system of access control to artificially reduce the size of a cave passage to aid conservation?

 

[andrewmcleod]

Yes, do mark off important and vulnerable speleothems and clay sediments, but be aware that there are idiots around who might treat excessive cave taping as a red rag affects a bull.

But no clay sculptures in caves?! I know of a number of places underground where such artistic works have been created, where there has been no threat to sediments that would in any way be considered important for sampling work and so I'd suggest that being a spoil sport is absolutely not the way to encourage good cave conservation.

The problem is that while you may know where and when it is or is not OK to play with mud, others may not - and if they see that sculpting with mud and throwing mud is OK in some places, they may think it is OK in other places.

Personally (and this is just my opinion) I feel caves should only be entered for caving purposes, whether that is digging, exploration, research, training, photography or just plain recreational caving. I don't like the idea of people drinking, partying, setting off fireworks in or having dinners in caves - I don't think it is respectful to the cave and sets a bad example. Creating an attitude of respecting caves (yes, even the ones that have already been heavily damaged) is, I feel, an important step towards creating a better culture of conservation.

 

[Clive G]

. . .

The problem is that while you may know where and when it is or is not OK to play with mud, others may not . . .

I feel caves should only be entered for caving purposes, whether that is digging, exploration, research, training, photography or just plain recreational caving. I don't like the idea of people drinking, partying, setting off fireworks in or having dinners in caves - I don't think it is respectful to the cave and sets a bad example.

. . .

Oh dear, that's all the fun gone out of caving, then . . .

I guess people need nannying and don't have minds of their own to act on their own judgment and initiative . . .

Mind you, this is why, as BCRA Publications Officer, I took Caves & Caving through the 'Discovering . . .' series of articles into the realms of explaining aspects of cave development and cave science, for those who might otherwise be non-scientifically minded or trained.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion for my film screenplay - I'd left that one out so far. It makes quite a loud bang, actually, and is probably best avoided where the roof might be a bit dubious. The smoke can be a problem, too. (It wasn't my idea, but I was there when someone decided to celebrate Guy Fawkes' night underground.) Yet, with all this 'preciousness', how on earth do you think cave explorers remove solid rock in confined passages or dangerous boulders from dangerous boulder chokes that otherwise prevent the passage of cavers? 'Fairy Liquid'? No!

 

[Roger W]

If you're too large to get through or past a particular obstacle in a cave then go on a diet or go somewhere else! There's nothing fairer than natural selection . . .

Perhaps what I should have said is this:

Is it a fair system of access control to artificially reduce the size of a cave passage to aid conservation?

Is this a solution to the whole locked gates/getting hold of keys access business?

Just install gates with the bars 9" apart (or whatever the agreed figure turns out to be).

No need for keys, codes or even spanners.  Just a bottle of Fairy Liquid.

The privileged and slender will be able to slip through with ease.

The overweight and obese will be unable to gain access and so unable to cause damage to the pretties.

Would sound good to me if I was still as thin as I was 50 years ago.... 

 

[bograt]

This is tending towards the implication that it is the big sods that cause the damage --.

Actually, thinking about it, could this be because they fill more space thereby allowing less room for the pretties ??

There's your answer then, restrict caving to the skinny dwarfs and all will be well 

P.S., 50 years ago I was a skinny dwarf, not so these days ! 

 

[droid]

Here's my take on it.

I DON'T MIND gates on caves, either internally or at the entrance, to restrict access to try to preserve the cave environment.

I DON'T MIND this access being controlled by democratic bodies, undemocratic bodies or individuals.

I DON'T MIND having to jump through hoops, sign forms, send letters or emails to gain access at some point in the future. 

I don't give a monkeys about it being undemocratic, restrictive or unfair because life generally is these things.

We aren't the owners of caves we're the custodians, for a short time, so who cares if one generation has to jump through hoops. There's plenty of caves where access IS free, go do one of those and stop whinging.

 

[Clive G]

If you're too large to get through or past a particular obstacle in a cave then go on a diet or go somewhere else! There's nothing fairer than natural selection . . .

Perhaps what I should have said is this:

Is it a fair system of access control to artificially reduce the size of a cave passage to aid conservation?

Is this a solution to the whole locked gates/getting hold of keys access business?

Just install gates with the bars 9" apart (or whatever the agreed figure turns out to be).

No need for keys, codes or even spanners.  Just a bottle of Fairy Liquid.

The privileged and slender will be able to slip through with ease.

The overweight and obese will be unable to gain access and so unable to cause damage to the pretties.

Would sound good to me if I was still as thin as I was 50 years ago.... 

This is taking the argument out of the context of opening caves up responsibly into the realm of opening caves up bigger than they need to be and then trying afterwards to resolve the human-created problems that arise as a consequence.

Enter Mr Political Speak, who's only interest is to contradict the views of Mr Political Speak 2, whereby Mr Political Speak 3 then enters the debate and hot words start flying around in every which direction. Lots of 'hits' for UKCaving here, anyway, in more ways than one - but none of this is relevant if the argument hadn't been skewed off course in the first place.

Years ago, I recall my brother saying of a particularly harrowing and tragic film we had just watched on television, "If the scriptwriter had got it right in the first place, then none of that needed to happen!"

The challenge presented by caving obstacles might be that you leave a pitch or climb in place rather than collapsing a load of boulders to remove the pitch or digging out a low-level bypass to avoid the pitch altogether. This is about leaving technical caving obstacles in place rather than needlessly turning everything into 'walk-through' passage. So, the differentiation for reducing numbers and wear and tear on the cave is between caving skill and caving naivety, as opposed to 'Biafra diet' v 'Reform Club luncheons' & drinks to follow.

 

[cap n chris]

Priorities:

Education
Finding a method of educating everyone and I mean everyone. Sending a leaflet out to clubs is good but not sufficient. Getting all caving websites to have Conservation on the front page, as a prerequisite of good practice. Signs at cave entrances. BCA cards printed on one side with conservation code 'terms and conditions'.

Example
The superb conservation prizes initiative is a good one. High profile clean ups. Club organised events.

Enforcement
Open to discussion. But how about banning anyone from BCA who is caught throwing or modelling mud for starters. Having a tick box/questionnaire for all BCA membership applicants to complete prior to acceptance.

 

[Kenilworth]

Priorities:

Education
Finding a method of educating everyone and I mean everyone. Sending a leaflet out to clubs is good but not sufficient. Getting all caving websites to have Conservation on the front page, as a prerequisite of good practice. Signs at cave entrances. BCA cards printed on one side with conservation code 'terms and conditions'. Unrealistic and ineffective

Example
The superb conservation prizes initiative is a good one. High profile clean ups. Club organised events. Ineffective


Enforcement
Open to discussion. But how about banning anyone from BCA who is caught throwing or modelling mud for starters. Having a tick box/questionnaire for all BCA membership applicants to complete prior to acceptance. Comically ineffective

With respect, none of these things address any fundamental causes, but weakly attempt to control effects.

But I'm not asking for solutions, I'm asking what cavers value and why?

 

[cap n chris]

Aha, in which case thanks for the clarification.

What do cavers value and why is going to be down to the individuals but I'd guess many will state that pristine beauty is worthy of preservation.

If you're looking for methods that aren't ineffective but which still allow visits to take place then the best to date is warden controlled access combined with a secure site.

As a PS I'd like to invite suggestions (perhaps on a different thread) that would be effective and non-comical when it comes to improving UK cave conservation from its present haphazard fingers-crossed state. Unless people think that conservation education in this country has already reached the pinnacle of excellence and cannot possibly be improved.

 

[Kenilworth]

To be clear Chris, I'm not suggesting that education is not important or cannot be improved. I am suggesting that "our" educating "them" is mostly a waste of time. We must be motivated to educate ourselves, and even more important than "knowledge" (information) are care and humility. Application of what we do learn is likely to involve discipline and restraint and a complete change of outlook in regard to the "sport" of caving.

So the solutions are not likely to be popular with cavers.

I am building the case that no large recreational caving organization can truly promote conservation. I am trying to prove that the desire of cavers to "grow the sport" is a kind of madness. I am trying to make clear connections between our misuse of above-ground places to our attitudes toward caves. I am hoping to show that societal and community disintegration is at the root of natural ruin, extending to caves, and since we can do nothing to correct this, caves will need to be protected by force and by sacrifice. Meanwhile, I am trying to imagine the ideal, and to explain it in such a way that makes it clear that what we are doing now is taking us in a more or less opposite direction.

 

[cap n chris]

Thanks again for the clarification! - very helpful.

However, this jumped out at me...

I am building the case that no large recreational caving organization can truly promote conservation.

Are you sure you aren't confusing conservation with preservation?

In fact, don't answer that - it can remain rhetorical because otherwise it will create a tangential thread or change of focus; let's assume that conservation/preservation/whatever is taken as read. Can you flesh out your statement? I'm guessing (and am probably agreeing) that recreation access and conservation access are immutable. Could they not be the same, though, with a bit of thought?

 

[Clive G]

Priorities:

Education
Finding a method of educating everyone and I mean everyone. Sending a leaflet out to clubs is good but not sufficient. Getting all caving websites to have Conservation on the front page, as a prerequisite of good practice. Signs at cave entrances. BCA cards printed on one side with conservation code 'terms and conditions'.

Example
The superb conservation prizes initiative is a good one. High profile clean ups. Club organised events.

Enforcement
Open to discussion. But how about banning anyone from BCA who is caught throwing or modelling mud for starters. Having a tick box/questionnaire for all BCA membership applicants to complete prior to acceptance.

Education absolutely. This is what I was aiming at with the last few issues of Caves & Caving when I thought we were setting up a new benchmark of editorial standards and style for the future - rather than seeing everything summarily wound down.

Example a good point. Feature caves that have been damaged and are being repaired, for which you need to look no further than the current issue of Descent (250*), June/July 2016, 'A Case of Desecration' [Hunters' Lodge Inn Sink], pp.24-5.

Adopt-a-Cave Scheme. This scheme was set up by Descent many years ago and received some friendly 'criticism' in the Derbyshire area in 2001 for a club that seemed to have 'abandoned' its cave and the accumulation of rubbish that was subsequently brought out by others. However, where clubs live up to their commitment to this scheme it is an excellent idea for not only helping to keep caves clean and tidy, but also for reporting on and dealing with any damage that might occur.

Conclusion. The very act of discovering a cave in the first place starts the process of change wrought by humankind on an otherwise 'natural environment'. So, as an explorer who has seen many new cave passages as they were explored for the first time, what I would like to see is caves conserved in as close to the state that they were in when they were first found as possible, in order that others may share in the wonderment of witnessing the natural world in as close to its natural state as possible - as I first saw it - for the foreseeable future.

However, I'm absolutely against sealing a cave back up again and preserving it 'exactly' as it has been found. What's the point in finding something if no one else is able to see it afterwards?

In addition, after marker tapes had been carefully placed in White Passage in Daren Cilau in 1985, where I was the third person to descend the 70ft pitch after Tony White and Martyn Farr, I was most put out in January 1986 to find that the tapes were broken and in disarray. At the same time our historic 'first footsteps' had also largely been obliterated. And what had done this? Nature herself . . . A sufficiently heavy storm and snow melt had completely flooded the passage with a river, from wall to wall, and the sediments and tapes had been moved about by the strength of the current.

Caves are dynamic places and although we should do our utmost to reduce the effects of human footfalls, nature herself can wreak far greater changes during one-off events than perhaps the worst of (temporary) human intervention.

* Very well done to the editorial team for reaching this milestone!

NB I can end up switching the different intents behind 'conserving' and 'preserving', too!

 

[Kenilworth]

Yes. I am by no means a preservationist. Indeed, I believe that is impossible for anyone who cares about themselves or nature to be a preservationist, and that preservationist propaganda is a symptom of our cultural sickness.

Conservation is to protect things of value from waste. Many valuable things are wasted under the influence of large-scale "recreational" caving organizations. There is much evidence of this in their supposed conservation principles. But that's the meat of what I'm working on right now, and is not ready to come out of the oven.

 

[cap n chris]

By large scale recreational caving organisations do you mean clubs, or national bodies? I'm guessing not showcaves or youth organisations as these latter tend to offer little which could be defined as caving in a fuller sense of the term.

 

[droid]

You're overthinking this.

a) decide what it is you wish to protect/preserve/conserve

b) work out a strategy to achieve this.

Pseudoscientific 'social science' is unlikely to achieve anything other than giving some people the opportunity to display their 'thoughtfulness'.