CROW and the Yorkshire Dales Local Access Forum (YDLAF)

[Stu]

Fair point Bob. But even simpler still CRoW is about open air recreation, which may or may not supercede that which is below. Climbing could be a meaningful analogy of a recreation that requires a perverse determination to engage in it.

I suggest CROW is about "Any person is entitled by virtue of this subsection to enter and remain on any access land for the purposes of open-air recreation...".  My point, obviously poorly put, is that by going into a cave you are no longer on the access land.  Whilst I accept I am being negative, I am trying to ensure that you shape the question to avoid possible answers which will not help.

Your point was well made Bob. I suppose I'm trying to look at things obliquely, and that access by CRoW to a landowners land could perhaps by extension cover access to a cave. I'm thinking that from a landowner's perspective why would they object if their land is already open access? I don't own land so don't know, but would presume that the so called negative affects of CRoW haven't really happened, so why not in for a penny etc.

There is of course the option for landowners to "designate" for those activities that are exempted (of which caving isn't specifically) to be included on their land. Though this would be quite a long winded route.

 

[Jenny P]

Re. the question of whether caving is accepted as an 'outdoor recreational activity': it certainly was by the then English Sports Council in the 1970s and 80s because I was a member of an East Midlands Outdoor Recreation Forum as a representative of caving interests.  The Sports Council has since changed its remit and become another body entirely but the principle established then still exists.

More recently I have represented caving interests on a Derbyshire local sports forum where, again, caving was accepted as being part of the sub-group relating to 'outdoor recreation'.

When it came to 'outdoor recreation' there was no question whatsoever that caving belonged in that category.  (The ones which were queried at the time were things like 'motor sports' and model aircraft flying!)

So there is a useful precedent which can be quoted in our case.

 

[blackholesun]

That's interesting and certainly does sound like a useful precedent Jenny. Do you happen to have any documents that have this in writing? I've not found any yet that seem official enough.

 

[David Rose]

I also totally endorse Dandan's comments.

A question. What areas/systems in the Dales are on CROW land but currently require permits? Does anyone have an accurate answer as to how significant establishing CROW access to caves might be?

 

[Badlad]

At a guess I would say;

Leck Fell
Casterton Fell
Barbondale
Some in Langstrothdale (Stransgill etc) and upper Wharfdale (Birksfell etc)
Fountains Fell
Gaping Gill
Newby moss
The Allotment
Penyghent

Probably getting on for a hundred good caves - a significant number of the best the Dales has to offer.

 

[JJ]

If referring to the YDLAF then Leck, Casterton and Barbondale are not currently in the Yorkshire Dales National Park so are not within their area.

 

[langcliffe]

Caves on CROW land where permission is not currently granted include Mossdale Caverns and Langcliffe Pot.

Permits are required for Mongo Gill, the entrances of which are on CROW land.

 

[David Rose]

I say: this is something we have to push. Maybe even all the way to a judicial review. I find it hard to believe that the judges would consider caving is excluded because it doesn't count as open air recreation.

Presumably a lot of South Wales would also be covered, and Derbyshire, too.

 

[Jenny P]

I have checked the situation in Derbyshire and there are surprisingly few caves affected - most of the CRoW land is on the sides of the steep limestone dales but there are some areas near Castleton which are CRoW land: Winnats Pass, Eldon Hill (including Eldon Hole which has no restrictions), Conies Dale and Ox Low.  In Winnats Pass Old Tor Mine is owned by the National Trust but kept locked to prevent mineral collectors removing the few remains of Blue John still there.

So most of the favourites, such as P8, Dr. Jackson's, Perryfoot, Gautries, Giants, Oxlow, Maskhill, Rowter, Nettle, JH, Titan, etc. are not on CRoW land and would not be affected - most require that you call on the farmer and pay a trespass fee.  Areas around Monyash: Knotlow, Hillocks, Whalf Pipe, Water Icicle, etc. are not on CRoW land but the shafts are protected by lids accessible with a spanner to undo the bolt.

In Lathkill Dale, which is CRoW land, there are no restrictions on entry to Lathkill Head Cave, whilst Boulder Pot, Ricklow the Cales Dale caves and Cascade have gates accessible with a spanner.  Lathkill Head Upper Entrance, on private land, has no restrictions but cavers should have a BCA insurance.  Lathkill Head Garden Path entrance was excavated on private land and is kept locked at the request of the owner and NE and accessible for scientific purposes only.

The situation in Dovedale and the Manifold Valley is complicated by being on National Trust Land and also nature reserves but, on the whole, where there is a gate to safeguard children or stock, the site is accessible with a spanner.

It is possible to start a dig in an SSSI and there is a helpful leaflet "Cave Digging on SSSIs, a Guide to Good Practice" issued jointly by DCA and Natural England, available f.o.c. from DCA and also on the DCA website for a free download.

What is evident from this is that the situation is by no means as cut and dried as some people have been given to understand - in some cases there are tight restrictions or no access at all on CRoW land, in other cases it's a free for all.  This applies even in the Dales: for example, there seems to be no restriction affecting caves on the west and southwest sides of Ingleborough/Simons Fell, whereas on the east and south you are expected to ask permission from the farmer or from Ingleborough Estates.

CNCC's website has a useful list of caves and their access requirements so it is relatively easy to check the situation and relate it to the CRoW areas on the maps.  Similarly, DCA has issued the "Peak District access and Rigging Guide" (also downloadable from the website) so, again, it is easy to check.

I don't know the situation in other caving areas of England (Shropshire, Forest of Dean, Devon & Cornwall, Dorset), which would still come under Natural England.  I am also not sure how the law applies to mines which are effectively treated as caves as opposed to natural caves - something which affects the Peak District in particular. 

Wales is probably now in a different situation because of the removal of the single statutory body, formerly the Countryside Council for Wales, and its replacement by an amalgamation of 3(?) other bodies which may not yet be clear as to how they are to work.

Clearly the law relating to access to caves on CRoW land in England is not being applied consistently and there should be grounds for challenging the interpretation by some landowners.  It might be sensible to start by querying the situation in England, (leaving out Wales for the moment) simply because there is an existing statutory body with which some of the regional councils already have a useful working relationship.

 

[JJ]

I don't want to be a damp squid as I too would have liked to see caves included in CROW open access.

However under the act open access only applies to areas that had been mapped as such by the Countryside Agency (now Natural England). This was categorised as mountain, moor, heath or downland and had to meet strict landscape criteria (grass types etc) in order to be included. The only other exception being registered common land.

It is unfortunately probably difficult to see how caves themselves fit into this.

 

[Jenny P]

Don't forget that Natural England has a duty to "monitor" the state of SSSIs and caves are almost always part of some geological SSSI.  Natural England relies on cavers to do the monitoring for them as they can't send their staff down caves - at present this monitoring is done by members of ordinary caving clubs and the results collated for EN by regional councils.  So, where caves are on CRoW land, EN is benefitting from cavers being able to access the caves without too much hassle and they have never suggested that we shouldn't be doing the monitoring because we have not applied for permission to go down that particular cave.  EN accept the results cavers provide and, certainly in Derbyshire, have never insisted that we should prove that we had obtained "official permission" to visit every single site on CRoW land.  I'd be interested to know if the same obtains in the Dales.

The "monitoring" results are also accepted for mines which are treated as caves (e.g. Knotlow Mine, parts of the Peak/Speedwell system) so, again, the system is inconsistent.

Cavers ought to be able to cite this inconsistency to their advantage.