CSCC Anchor Placement Scheme

[Darkstar]

Due to differences with the BCA's Equipment & Techniques Committee and with no hope of short term resolution, the CSCC left the BCA Anchor Placement scheme in July 2010.

The CSCC hopes that eventually these differences can be resolved and that the two schemes can be merged.

In the meantime,  the CSCC has produced a set of Guidance Documents for the operation of the CSCC Anchor Placement Scheme.

There are three documents in the pack:

CSCC-EQ-GN-1001    Anchor Placement & Installation Guidance
CSCC-EQ-GN-1002    Anchor Inspection & Usage
CSCC-EQ-PR-1001    Anchor Management (Installation, Testing, Defect Reporting) Procedure

It is important that anyone using or installing anchors familiarises themselves with their contents.

The documents are available in .pdf form on the CSCC Website at:
http://cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=equipment:cscc_anchor_placement_programme#documentation

Yours,
Faye Litherland
CSCC Equipment Officer

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Hi Faye,

Have had a read of the said documents and found it very interesting. Was there any specific points of disagreement or just a disagreement on the way to proceed ?


Robin

 

[Brains]

Without wishing to be contentious, the areas/ reasons for disagreement may be of interest to all of us. I know this has been touched on before, but a brief comment here could help resolve doubts about anchors across the UK which may arise from one regional council following this course of action.

I hope this will be an easier debate than, say, gating!

 

[Darkstar]

It is not my intention to get drawn into an on-line debate over this.  My original post was for information and nothing more.  However, I think it is reasonable to give a brief overview of what has led us to this position. 

The original CSCC concerns were broadly that we were being asked to approve a document which we were not allowed to review (CSCC officers cannot vote, it is the club representatives who have the votes and they were not allowed to see it), and the insistence that anyone who wanted to become an anchor installer had to be SRT competent, even if the anchor was being installed for ladder and lifeline or rescue.  It was felt that if the anchors were being installed for ladder and lifeline that the person's SRT competence was irrelevant.  CSCC felt that the person installing the anchors should be competent in the technique for which the anchors were to be used.

There were a few other small issues, but that was the crux of it.  When I reviewed the document I was surprised at how limited it was, as it gave no guidance for alternative anchor types or substrates other than limestone.  Also I was surprised at how formulaic the approach was for something which relies a lot on personal judgement.  In addition I felt that there had not been enough emphasis placed on failure modes and indicators. 

As a council, we felt that the document was overly prescriptive and should be couched more in the form of guidance documents rather than a strict procedure.  With a procedure, people can blindly follow it, but with a guidance document the responsibility ultimately rests with the installer and the person using the anchor.

 

[Hatstand]

Just playing Devil's advocate an all, but if presented with a set of P hangers in a cave, how does one know whether they were intended for SRT or Ladder and line???  :halo:

Obviously, anyone using hangers should assess the best way to rig the pitch and not just "join the dots" etc etc but I've come across anchors that we've been damned if we can work out how they were meant to be used!  :-[  (well nobody died so I guess we didn't go too far wrong!)

 

[Brains]

If the bolts are in Mendip they will be for ladder and optional line.
Everywhere else they will be placed for SRT, but may also be used for ladder if you are visiting from the Mendips...
Simples!

 

[exsumper]

Hi Faye
I agree that a more guidance note approach is much the best solution and leaving the responsibility to individual judgment  has always proved to be the best approach in the past. It avoids so much unnecessary beauracracy and avoids setting a precedent with regard to liability. It is much more in keeping with the approach to caving that I prefer.
As an aside, do you know how the stainless steel reacts to the other metallic elements such as iron, lead etc when installed into the dolomitic conglomerate?. 

 

[mikem]

If the bolts are in Mendip they will be for ladder and optional line.

Unless you're in Rhino Rift or Thrupe Lane...

Mike

 

[ian.p]

Bearing in mind that this is the sort of descsion that affects all mendip cavers not just the CSCC why shouldnt there be an online debate? this place is as good a public forum as anywhere else.
my question would be:
How many non SRT competent people are there in the mendips with a level of rigging experiance that would make them sensible candidates for installing P bolts???? we dont exactly need many certified bolters there are not after all that many pitches to bolt we might as well give the job to someone whos placed a lot of bolts in there time and they will all be SRT competent  because you dont rig alpine caves with ladders anymore and that is where the majority of british cavers build up bolting experiance these days. though it seems sensible if your going to place bolts for ladders you should also  know about ladder and life line rigging as well.

 

[graham]

Bearing in mind that this is the sort of descsion that affects all mendip cavers not just the CSCC why shouldnt there be an online debate? this place is as good a public forum as anywhere else.

I rather suspect that every Mendip caver and every Mendip would be more than welcome at the next CSCC meeting, just as they were at the previous ones where these matters were discussed.

That is the forum in which decision son these things can be made.

 

[kay]

  With a procedure, people can blindly follow it, but with a guidance document the responsibility ultimately rests with the installer and the person using the anchor.

Doesn't that put rather a burden on the installer? The installer is putting him/herself in a  dangerous position as regards liability if he/she deviates from the guidance.

 

[ian.p]

yes but theres no reason why a discusion cant take place hear as well CSCC may as well use all the tools at its disposal to gather the veiws of constituent club memebers.

being installed for ladder and lifeline or rescue

and id be scared shitless if i was a casualtie being hauled on rescue bolts placed by somone who didnt know what a jammer was theyre not going to have a clue about hauling sytems are they???

 

[graham]

yes but theres no reason why a discusion cant take place hear as well CSCC may as well use all the tools at its disposal to gather the veiws of constituent club memebers.

being installed for ladder and lifeline or rescue

and id be scared shitless if i was a casualtie being hauled on rescue bolts placed by somone who didnt know what a jammer was theyre not going to have a clue about hauling sytems are they???

Well go along to the next meeting and make your concerns known.

Your club is a member I presume?

 

[graham]

  With a procedure, people can blindly follow it, but with a guidance document the responsibility ultimately rests with the installer and the person using the anchor.

Doesn't that put rather a burden on the installer? The installer is putting him/herself in a  dangerous position as regards liability if he/she deviates from the guidance.

if no judgement was involved we could get monkeys to do it.

 

[mikem]

Doesn't that put rather a burden on the installer? The installer is putting him/herself in a  dangerous position as regards liability if he/she deviates from the guidance.

Depends if you put it in for yourself or for CSCC use...

Mike

 

[Les W]

There is a huge amount of background info related to this and in order for somebody to have a meaningful debate they would need to know all of this background.

I'm pretty certain nobody is going to sit down and type it all into this forum, so the only way you are going to get the background is to read all the CSCC minutes or quiz your club rep.
This issue has been discussed on Mendip for a long time now (more than a year) and these decisions have been taken at CSCC meetings that your club was/should have been* (delete as appropriate) represented.

The minutes of these meetings were distributed to your club (and are available online) and your club officer should have disseminated the reasons/decisions to the membership. That is the proper forum for these things and if you have any concerns then you should either raise them with your club rep and insist they are presented to a CSCC meeting, or attend a CSCC meeting yourself (this is a bad thing as attendance at a meeting usually results in somebody being conned into a job).

 

[AndyF]

Im loosing the will to live...

Step 1 - Obtain Petzl Catalog
Step 2 - Choose resin based anchor of choice
Step 3 - Read Peztl installation notes
Step 4 - Install anchor
Step 5 - Keep trap shut and don't admit you did it for fear of flaming/retribution/being sued in true English style and getting a load of commitee generated grief.

Really, no other country even has a "P" hanger debate because they have not chosen to reinvent the wheel by with a hanger that isn't as good as those commercially available.

 

[Les W]

Really, no other country even has a "P" hanger debate because they have not chosen to reinvent the wheel by with a hanger that isn't as good as those commercially available.

Whilst not disagreeing with your general philosophy the statement above is worthy of some debate.

 

[Les W]

Ian P,
If you want/need some background you could do worse than start with these:

http://cscc.org.uk/wiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?id=documents%3Astart&cache=cache&media=documents:e_t_minutes_10th_october_2009_response_to_cscc.pdf

http://cscc.org.uk/wiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?id=documents%3Astart&cache=cache&media=documents:cscc_2010.05.08_minutes_draft.pdf

Im pretty sure there is plenty more at http://cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=documents:start

 

[cap n chris]

Im loosing the will to live...

Step 1 - Obtain Petzl Catalog
Step 2 - Choose resin based anchor of choice
Step 3 - Read Peztl installation notes
Step 4 - Install anchor
Step 5 - Keep trap shut and don't admit you did it for fear of flaming/retribution/being sued in true English style and getting a load of commitee generated grief.

Really, no other country even has a "P" hanger debate because they have not chosen to reinvent the wheel by with a hanger that isn't as good as those commercially available.

I reckon something along these lines occurs out here in Spain (Southern) `cos the pitch heads here have about 20 bolts per square metre, nearly every one of which is shonky (i.e. out of alignment Batinox, protruding spits, various expansion anchors, rusty homemade plates etc. etc..). It won't be long before there's no blank rock left for reliable anchors to be placed. Then what?