Peter Burgess
New member
Sincere apologies to them in that case.
Dan yr Ogof closed to cavers on Fri 3/6
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As someone who has been in contact with ABIS on behalf of BCA I would like to highlight a few points so that the membership can see that BCA has sought to address the ABIS concerns;
BCA was first contacted by ABIS back in January with concerns about any effect cave access under CRoW may have on their commercial cave businesses. BCA responded by putting together a technical document which clearly demonstrated that access under CRoW would NOT apply to show caves. This was sent ahead of the ABIS AGM and supported by a letter summarising the issues and suggesting we have many common interests in caves that could work to our mutual advantages.
Without any further contact ABIS sent out a letter expressing their concerns over the BCA campaign. This was sent to officials in Defra, Natural England, Natural Resources Wales, National Parks, various MPs and various members of BCA and Regional Councils.
Only following this letter did ABIS ask for a meeting with BCA to discuss the issues. A first meeting was held at Dan Yr Ogof and the BCA chairman went out of his way to attend this meeting. A follow up meeting was requested and I was one of four BCA officers who attended by request (Andy Eavis, Andrew Hinde, Bob Mehew and Tim Allen).
Ashford Price voiced the concerns much as he has laid out in his recent letters and press releases. That members of the public, families etc would be wandering into caves, getting lost or hurt or destroying formations if they thought they had a right to do so. The BCA officers present did not subscribe to this view. However, BCA has put in place advice on public safety and conservation and developed an improved drive on conservation awareness to run in parallel with improvements in access.
The meeting agreed to disagree on some issues but resolved to work together on conservation matters where practical. The BCA did not offer to suspend it's campaign as was the wish of ABIS. The BCA is a democratic organisation and the membership has made its position clear. At neither meeting was it suggested that ABIS wished to step up their opposition to banning cavers or taking their views to the press.
Amongst those you would expect to attend such a meeting, show cave owners etc, there were some surprises. Graham Mullen and his wife, Linda Wilson were present. Both have been vocal opponents to any rights of access under CRoW. Linda, a retired solicitor, was there in her official capacity as an advisor to the ABIS and spoke on their behalf a number of times.
ABIS and BCA are very different associations but do have caves in common. ABIS represents 15 commercial show cave businesses in Britain and Ireland whilst BCA represents a host of bodies with interests in science, training and recreational caving. It is not unreasonable to find that we have some differing opinions on caves. BCA have responded to all requests by ABIS in a polite and courteous manner. It is unfortunate that we cannot agree over this issue of access but we are happy to work together on issues where we can.
It is also worth pointing out that ABIS are not unanimous on their recent actions as one of their 15 members has resigned from the association over it.
BCA was first contacted by ABIS back in January with concerns about any effect cave access under CRoW may have on their commercial cave businesses. BCA responded by putting together a technical document which clearly demonstrated that access under CRoW would NOT apply to show caves. This was sent ahead of the ABIS AGM and supported by a letter summarising the issues and suggesting we have many common interests in caves that could work to our mutual advantages.
Without any further contact ABIS sent out a letter expressing their concerns over the BCA campaign. This was sent to officials in Defra, Natural England, Natural Resources Wales, National Parks, various MPs and various members of BCA and Regional Councils.
Only following this letter did ABIS ask for a meeting with BCA to discuss the issues. A first meeting was held at Dan Yr Ogof and the BCA chairman went out of his way to attend this meeting. A follow up meeting was requested and I was one of four BCA officers who attended by request (Andy Eavis, Andrew Hinde, Bob Mehew and Tim Allen).
Ashford Price voiced the concerns much as he has laid out in his recent letters and press releases. That members of the public, families etc would be wandering into caves, getting lost or hurt or destroying formations if they thought they had a right to do so. The BCA officers present did not subscribe to this view. However, BCA has put in place advice on public safety and conservation and developed an improved drive on conservation awareness to run in parallel with improvements in access.
The meeting agreed to disagree on some issues but resolved to work together on conservation matters where practical. The BCA did not offer to suspend it's campaign as was the wish of ABIS. The BCA is a democratic organisation and the membership has made its position clear. At neither meeting was it suggested that ABIS wished to step up their opposition to banning cavers or taking their views to the press.
Amongst those you would expect to attend such a meeting, show cave owners etc, there were some surprises. Graham Mullen and his wife, Linda Wilson were present. Both have been vocal opponents to any rights of access under CRoW. Linda, a retired solicitor, was there in her official capacity as an advisor to the ABIS and spoke on their behalf a number of times.
ABIS and BCA are very different associations but do have caves in common. ABIS represents 15 commercial show cave businesses in Britain and Ireland whilst BCA represents a host of bodies with interests in science, training and recreational caving. It is not unreasonable to find that we have some differing opinions on caves. BCA have responded to all requests by ABIS in a polite and courteous manner. It is unfortunate that we cannot agree over this issue of access but we are happy to work together on issues where we can.
It is also worth pointing out that ABIS are not unanimous on their recent actions as one of their 15 members has resigned from the association over it.
Peter Burgess
New member
Regarding Tim's statement above - a simple clarification - Linda is not and never has been an official adviser to ABIS. She was present on this one occasion at the invitation of ABIS. Graham Mullan was simply Linda's driver and did not take part in the meeting, even when directly addressed. This information from Linda a few minutes ago.
Peter Burgess
New member
Linda begs to differ. She has no official role. Graham took no part in the meeting, but he is a good listener.
Peter Burgess
New member
You know her do you? Spoken to her? There seems to always be two sides to every aspect of this story. You really have to ask yourself why. Even something as benign as who was at a meeting. Tim's report cleverly mentioned she was a retired lawyer and official adviser. The implication being that she might have been a legal adviser - it's playing with words to cause a desired effect. Which is misleading and not true.
Peter Burgess
New member
Which is precisely why I can recognise it, Madness.
Speak truth to power, or those who presume to have it.
Speak truth to power, or those who presume to have it.
Brains
Well-known member
Having just read all of this, and remembering my conversion with RF I realise the mischief is strong with many on this thread.
I should be surprised but I am not. Commercial interests claimimg legitimate interest in things irrelevant to their business, well whatever next. Vested interest swaying the will of others by lobbying - standard practice, twisting things to ones own point of view, typical politics.
The sun will rise tomorrow, the issue wont be resolved, opinions wont be changed and bickering will continue as normal.
Nothing to see here, move along now and let the children play in the midden
ah147
New member
Peter Burgess said:
I don't need to know or speak to her. When someone says, publically, "I have written record they were under the impression she was there as an advisor"
They're generally telling the truth.
Someone else saying "I'm telling you she said this..." Is on a lot shakier ground. Especially when the two contradict.
droid
Active member
Peter Burgess said:
Homo neanderthalis has been shown to largely lack imagination compared with Homo sapiens.....the Mousterian tool technology hardly changed over many thousands of years, and when it did, the suggestion was that it was copying from H. sapiens tool technology.
What's the moral of this?
Buggered if I know.
Except: maybe it's a commentary on people that only see their own point of view, and cannot or will not acknowledge that others see things differently.
Peter Burgess
New member
I'll let you all into a little secret. "Neanderthals more imaginative than the average UKC member" was a far from serious suggestion for today's news item at http://darknessbelow.co.uk/?p=1841 which earlier today I typed in error in the wrong web page instead of into the body of an email, and didn't notice for some time :-[
So there you have it - my mischief isn't just reserved for this forum......
Anyway, it's a fabulous story - something we should all agree on.
So there you have it - my mischief isn't just reserved for this forum......
Anyway, it's a fabulous story - something we should all agree on.
Ian Adams
Active member
O.M.G......
Just read Peter's article ......
We simply MUST gate every single cave to protect it from all that damage that "Neanderthal man" can (and has) done.
....On topic, since "Neanderthal man" managed to go into caves without killing themselves "en masse", it seems a little extreme to suggest that applying CRoW to caving is going to result in people killing themselves.
Ian
Just read Peter's article ......
We simply MUST gate every single cave to protect it from all that damage that "Neanderthal man" can (and has) done.
....On topic, since "Neanderthal man" managed to go into caves without killing themselves "en masse", it seems a little extreme to suggest that applying CRoW to caving is going to result in people killing themselves.
Ian
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