Democracy?????????????

[Peter Burgess]

Actually, we are all the losers when a topic gets drawn into stupid vindictive comments. Just pack it in for everyone's sake, please.

 

[graham]

I think it is worth recalling a bit of history of caving politics.

OK, CSCC was formed specifically to counter perceived moves by CNCC to impose its policies on access across the nation as a whole.

History repeats itself.

This is Graham as usual being deliberately provocative for no other reason than he enjoys it.

This is Simon demonstrating that he has no knowledge of history.

It's still 2-nil.

And this is Simon demonstrating the remarkable height of his intellectual powers. 

 

[droid]

No....he's a shining wit 

 

[Simon Wilson]

Simon - it will be difficult to find the perfect rule by which you can differentiate the genuinely small club from the sort you keep on about. It's probably a very grey area. Some new small clubs may well be genuine "break away" clubs by cavers who simply thought a new club was more appropriate than trying to muck along in one they were not comfortable with. How do you decide if a club was set up for purely political reasons, apart from some kind of gut feeling?

Several people have been discussing this issue over the past few months and taking a very close look at the micro-clubs in the North.

When you know the clubs and the people involved there is nothing grey about it. It is very easy to tell when a club has been set up purely as a political tactic. There are several small clubs involved with the CNCC.

Burnley Caving Club is a very small club who take a active role in the CNCC. I know them well, I used to represent them at the CNCC, they are one of the eight founding clubs and they have shrunk to quite a small size. Not a Problem as long as they send a proper club rep who truly represents the club.

The CNCC Chairman is a member of the Dent House Speleological Society. The DHSS was established in the 1980s, is well known and respected for the exploration of Ibbeth Peril and at it's height had about six members. I have been told that it now has three members. It is a 'proper' club that has shrunk to a very small size - not a problem. However, I do think that when a club gets down to three it is time to start thinking about taking away its right to vote on the committee. I have included this as a micro-club but at the last AGM the Chairman was one of the ones who gave up his right to vote.

The CNCC Secretary is a member of York Caving Club who are a very small club. They are quite newly formed but are very active and keen cavers and I expect they will attract more members. Not a problem.

So there are clubs that are small because they've shrunk and clubs that are small because they are new.

Now the clubs that I call micro-clubs. These are LUG, Elysium, NSG and St Helens CC. All of these micro-clubs are used purely to manipulate the politics. They are 'flags of convenience' which get shifted about amongst the CNCC in-crowd. It is impossible to find out anything about them and each of them only appears to have one member or possibly two members at any one time but they are there in force at every meeting.

There is also the CNCC Technical Group who are an incorporated part of the CNCC but they also claim to be a caving club who for many years have voted as a club. They claim to have been formed as a club in order to be able to apply for permits to install resin anchors but both members of the CNCC TG are members of other clubs so that doesn't hold water.

It is for the proper clubs to make sure that proper clubs get elected and that micro-clubs don't get elected.

 

[Peter Burgess]

It only takes one influential person to make a wrong judgement either deliberately or in error for the whole idea of separating the sheep from the goats to fall into disrepute. Perhaps as long as you are policing this, nobody needs to be concerned?

 

[Alex]

Oh I see the what you mean Simon, until your latest post I thought you were having problems with clubs like BRCC (We are quite small but very active) but I see now you are talking about contrived clubs (which would be a better name for them I think, to avoid confusion).

 

[Simon Wilson]

Oh I see the problem Simon, I thought you were having problems with clubs like BRCC (We are quite small but very active) but I see now you are talking about contrived clubs (which would be a better name for them I think, to avoid confusion).

Thanks for that reply. We need more proper clubs like BRCC to take an interest.

I have fond memories of BRCC. Many years ago I was dragged up Jockey Hole by a party from BRCC who saw one BCC member sitting on the surface lining me on his own and decided to give him a hand. I then got at the front of the lining party and spurred them on lining the last member of our party. He came flying over the top screaming at us for dragging him off the ladder while we all rolled about on the ground pissing ourselves in the pissing rain.

 

[topcat]

Oh I see the what you mean Simon, until your latest post I thought you were having problems with clubs like BRCC (We are quite small but very active) but I see now you are talking about contrived clubs (which would be a better name for them I think, to avoid confusion).

I'm thinking of forming a new club:  The Black CRoW Caving Club.  I don't know how many members it would attract but as it would not be affiliated to any political body it won't be a contrived club of convenience: we'd just go caving.

 

[owd git]

No....he's a shining wit 

Is that a 'spoonerism?'  

 

[Bob Mehew]

Are we all happy with the concept of a micro-club or are some of the provocative people going to pretend they don't know what I am talking about?

BCA has rules concerning what is an acceptable club, see http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=membership:club_criteria.  It normally expects there to be at least 4 members.  The current list of member clubs is at http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=about:member_clubs.  So I suggest there is a general view within BCA that micro (that is more than 3 people) clubs are OK. 

 

[Simon Wilson]

Are we all happy with the concept of a micro-club or are some of the provocative people going to pretend they don't know what I am talking about?

BCA has rules concerning what is an acceptable club, see http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=membership:club_criteria.  It normally expects there to be at least 4 members.  The current list of member clubs is at http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=about:member_clubs.  So I suggest there is a general view within BCA that micro (that is more than 3 people) clubs are OK.

I don't think numbers are any help at all. It's not the number that matters it's the function. Alex got it right with 'contrived club'.

 

[kay]

Are we all happy with the concept of a micro-club or are some of the provocative people going to pretend they don't know what I am talking about?

BCA has rules concerning what is an acceptable club, see http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=membership:club_criteria.  It normally expects there to be at least 4 members.  The current list of member clubs is at http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=about:member_clubs.  So I suggest there is a general view within BCA that micro (that is more than 3 people) clubs are OK.

The link Bob quotes also says:

"The club has a major aim or objective that is in support of the sport of caving, mine exploration, cave science, cave & mine conservation or caver training."

Any club set up purely to give someone influence on CNCC or any other body would fall foul of that.

 

[exsumper]

I think it is worth recalling a bit of history of caving politics.

OK, CSCC was formed specifically to counter perceived moves by CNCC to impose its policies on access across the nation as a whole.

History repeats itself.

As that threat was a straw man at best; invented by the same self important types who purport to represent us now.  might I suggest that our caving politicians do cavers a favour, and scrap The BCA, The CNCC and the CSCC forthwith; returning caving to its former state of Anarchy; the desired definition of anarchy being "society without government" of course!.
Admittedly it would leave a lot of busybodies with nothing to do with their spare time, But as I've said before, The Eddie Stobart Fan Club awaits them! or failing that mine clearance work etc whatever!

If my splendid plan is adopted? As an act of atonement for bringing us to this pretty pass, before they depart for pastures new; Perhaps they could select one of their number to  perform an act of self immolation at this years Hidden Earth?

 

 

[Pitlamp]

So how do you actually define what counts as a "proper" club?

I do talk to Red Rose members frequently Simon; many of them are personal friends. The fact remains that the majority of caving clubs don't own a hostel and some of these non hostel owning clubs are also large. So I'm not sure that extrapolating from casual discussions with a few members of one club, to draw conclusions about the whole UK caving community, is very helpful.

John, my old mate, this thread is about democracy not about club hostels. I'm not going to argue with you about what is a 'proper' club or which one of us has more friends in Red Rose.

But I will point out that you are a member of a well-respectied northern club that is a proper club. Your club did not send a representative to this year's CNCC AGM despite numerous pleadings to do so. Your club has not attended a CNCC meeting for as long as the published minutes show (back to 2006) and appears to have no interest in the CNCC whatsoever.

My apologies - I've had to work today, hence late reply.

The existence of some clubs having hostels was being linked (at least by implication) to whether such clubs should enjoy as much representation as they do. I was merely pointing out that the argument developing was flawed; surely no-one would want to build an argument on shaky foundations? Such arguments have a habit of collapsing spectacularly later on.

I'm actually a contented member of several northern clubs but the non appearance of one of them at certain meetings might be to do with whichever club you were referring to being happy with how things are. (I don't know for certain whether this is the case but just thought it might be worth mentioning as a possibility.)

 

[nearlywhite]

As far as I can see, in order to have proportional representation you either have a a council of northern cavers whereby clubs are irrelevant and anyone can vote if interested. Or you go down the representative democracy route and require a voting block to have a minimum of 20 members. The latter seems needlessly complicated.

Another farce is a university club being told that it cannot be affiliated to 2 regional councils or that it is 'too southern' despite being in the same county.

Sad to think that I avoid certain regions due to caving politics, good for conservation I suppose

 

[Simon Wilson]

Sorry John, It was NPC I was referring to who appear to take no interest in the CNCC.

Nearlywhite, SUSS have been discussed at some length at two recent CNCC meetings. I think it is fair to say that most people are quite dismayed that SUSS were discouraged from joining. I'm sure you will be aware that there is now a new Secretary and that things are changing. Can you ask the person responsible to get SUSS to apply to join ASAP.

 

[Pitlamp]

Sorry John, It was NPC I was referring to who appear to take no interest in the CNCC.

Nearlywhite, SUSS have been discussed at some length at two recent CNCC meetings. I think it is fair to say that most people are quite dismayed that SUSS were discouraged from joining. I'm sure you will be aware that there is now a new Secretary and that things are changing. Can you ask the person responsible to get SUSS to apply to join ASAP.

Well, I've been to several NPC meetings this year when CNCC issues have been discussed and I remember one (back in March I think) when the Secretary was asked to write to the CNCC to express the club's opinion on something because there was something on that day which prevented anyone attending in person. (I don't remember the detail because I'm not an officer of the club, so I had no real need to make a firm mental note of it.) I also remember the issue of the NPC's membership of CNCC coming up at a meeting; I think this was because we found we were associate members and we decided to apply to be full members. Not sure what happened about this but I'm confident that the NPC does support the CNCC and take an interest.

Regarding SUSS; I'd be delighted to see this club become a CNCC member but I'll not see any of our clubs officers till early September (at the earliest) so if this is urgent you might be better off telling SUSS directly?

 

[nearlywhite]

I will do. I suspect that the committee (and myself) were under the impression that we couldn't because we were a member of the DCA - the whole M62 line we learned was untrue! 

Back to the topic, I do think that if a club is active in an area it has a stake in its administration - though I don't have a clue how to manage that in the current system without a free-for-all

 

[Simon Wilson]

Sorry John, It was NPC I was referring to who appear to take no interest in the CNCC.

Nearlywhite, SUSS have been discussed at some length at two recent CNCC meetings. I think it is fair to say that most people are quite dismayed that SUSS were discouraged from joining. I'm sure you will be aware that there is now a new Secretary and that things are changing. Can you ask the person responsible to get SUSS to apply to join ASAP.

Well, I've been to several NPC meetings this year when CNCC issues have been discussed and I remember one (back in March I think) when the Secretary was asked to write to the CNCC to express the club's opinion on something because there was something on that day which prevented anyone attending in person. (I don't remember the detail because I'm not an officer of the club, so I had no real need to make a firm mental note of it.) I also remember the issue of the NPC's membership of CNCC coming up at a meeting; I think this was because we found we were associate members and we decided to apply to be full members. Not sure what happened about this but I'm confident that the NPC does support the CNCC and take an interest.

Regarding SUSS; I'd be delighted to see this club become a CNCC member but I'll not see any of our clubs officers till early September (at the earliest) so if this is urgent you might be better off telling SUSS directly?

NPC are a full member club and have been for donkey's years. They must have been bombarded with requests to attend the AGM and they never showed and they haven't been to any CNCC meeting since before 2006. You say they take an interest but it doesn't look that way from the CNCC end.

 

[Simon Wilson]

I will do. I suspect that the committee (and myself) were under the impression that we couldn't because we were a member of the DCA - the whole M62 line we learned was untrue! 

Back to the topic, I do think that if a club is active in an area it has a stake in its administration - though I don't have a clue how to manage that in the current system without a free-for-all

You can be a member of as many regional councils as you want.

That business about a line of demarcation is a farce and was the cause of much mirth at the AGM. The constitution says "Full membership of the Council will only be granted to... clubs... and are primarily based in the North of Britain." Well, honestly, where does the North of Britain start? Turn up in a flat cap and wi' a wippet and tha'll be in.