Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc

[droid]

I'm told Mrdoc is thinking of becoming the BCA P&I officer. Maybe he will discover that if does take on this important role it would be sensible to maintain amicable relations with his colleagues, such as the BCA newsletter editor. Oh! Goodness! That would be me!

For crying out loud.

Playground stuff

 

[badger]

i think this is all getting blown way out of proportion, those opposed to crow are allowed their opinion, those opposed to Brexit are allowed their opinion, but here we are the majority voted to leave Europe, we have, the majority of British cavers voted for BCA to campaign for crow. part of that process was always going to be a court case. so here we are. DR has done an incredible amount of work towards that case, irrelevant whether we think its good value or waste of money. the mandate was given by the membership, the council has done what it was asked to do.
As for decent magazine I have seen all sorts of point of views over the years published, I don't think the editors have ever been biased on content regardless to personal views.
I personally like Chris & Judith doesn't mean I agree with their point of view, same as I like people who have a different opinion to me over crow, as those that have a different opinion over Brexit

 

[darren]

People seem to be saying once something has been voted on everyone needs to fall in behind the result and never discuss it again.

Looks like we're stuck with the incompetent Conservative government foe ever.

 

[Speleofish]

This is really depressing. I don't know any of the protagonists but all of them are respected members of the caving community, have done great things and I have enjoyed reading about their activities over the last few years.

I haven't seen the article in question and I struggle with the various arguments. However, if the caving community wants to improve access to holes in the ground, it should surely present a united front. This argument takes us backwards, not forwards. 

 

[badger]

People seem to be saying once something has been voted on everyone needs to fall in behind the result and never discuss it again.

Looks like we're stuck with the incompetent Conservative government foe ever.

I am fairly certain which ever party we have in government would be incompetent, the only thing that changes with governments is the level of incompetency

 

[Badlad]

.......
On the occasions I have visited the Dales over the last 50 years I have never had an issue with access. That is what is puzzling me!

You are not alone.  It puzzles a number of people, however, in the main they are all people well connected within caving circles, like you are yourself.  This isn't true for everybody and even well connected cavers admit that the old permit systems were very inflexible to last minute changes due to weather conditions, etc.  It has been a fact, that some groups of cavers, perhaps not as well connected or not from within the caving community bubble, have been disadvantaged to the point of giving up by previous access systems.  That is why CNCC mandated me to improve access arrangements across the Dales when I was access officer.  I can assure you that in those negotiations the BCA CRoW campaign and legal opinion were instrumental in changing the views of the landowners and their agents for the better and helped immensely with improving the outcomes that many cavers now enjoy.  There is still more work to do and further improvements to be made of course.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

I shan't add any more to this because as usual it has deteriorated into an us and them argument with those who shout the loudest holding sway.

"I can't imagine why you can't see that. Of course, you could apologise. But I'm not holding my breath." This a quote from our  "wordsmith " friend. I am sorry I wont be saying sorry for my intro. here though I must be more careful about my grammar. A classic case of " shoot the messenger " from my point of view. Its a real shame that the forum just ends up with so many conflicting political views rather than discussing caving in a more practical sense. Photos which I have almost given up on. Digs which seldom get mentioned here and trip reports. Its a lot about Committees and points of view rather than caving.

One final personal observation of mine. Stated here that %23 of BCA members voted " for ". Hardly an overwhelming mandate in my view.

Well I went caving last night despite feeling unwell . This week George Clooney stated that anything that loses him a minute of sleep is not worth the effort. For a similiar reason I will now give the forum a break from my photos and ramblings.

 

[Badlad]

OR (and mrodoc).  I do hope you are not including my two posts in your sweeping statement.  I have tried to give you a valid example of where the BCA CRoW campaign has been beneficial already.  I also tried to answer mrodoc's question about caving in the north.  I thought i was quite qualified on both counts having been involved as a volunteer on both the CRoW campaign and with northern access.  The original opinion and points made in Descent are of course valid, but you yourself started this thread on them, you must have expected some of those views to be challenged. 

Anyway, I guess the settlement, equally, will be viewed very differently too

 

[Cosmo Smallpiece]

I wouldn't get too annoyed with the confusion around your original post. This quote issue happened on the "boosterism" thread recently....

It would seem you are a victim of the way you presented your commen!. It looked as though you were making the statements. Best put them in quotes in future to avoid misunderstanding.

As a newbie I am trying to understand the issues being discussed. I would like to hear the counter argument in layman's terms. The threads on CRoW often descend into rows without any clarity for us outsiders.

 

[Stu]

I wouldn't get too annoyed with the confusion around your original post. This quote issue happened on the "boosterism" thread recently....

It would seem you are a victim of the way you presented your commen!. It looked as though you were making the statements. Best put them in quotes in future to avoid misunderstanding.

As a newbie I am trying to understand the issues being discussed. I would like to hear the counter argument in layman's terms. The threads on CRoW often descend into rows without any clarity for us outsiders.

This isn't probably what you want to hear, and I'm definitely not being dismissive*; a quick search will provide you with hours (even days!) of a certain type of fun  as you plough through what were some pretty heated exchanges.

*Nothing will have changed with the two camps pretty much still polarised, and I know I for one don't have the energy nor inclination to start down that road again (practically, the 'discussion' wouldn't be an easy thing to summarise either).

 

[Stu]

.......
On the occasions I have visited the Dales over the last 50 years I have never had an issue with access. That is what is puzzling me!

You are not alone.  It puzzles a number of people, however, in the main they are all people well connected within caving circles, like you are yourself.  This isn't true for everybody and even well connected cavers admit that the old permit systems were very inflexible to last minute changes due to weather conditions, etc.  It has been a fact, that some groups of cavers, perhaps not as well connected or not from within the caving community bubble, have been disadvantaged to the point of giving up by previous access systems.  That is why CNCC mandated me to improve access arrangements across the Dales when I was access officer.  I can assure you that in those negotiations the BCA CRoW campaign and legal opinion were instrumental in changing the views of the landowners and their agents for the better and helped immensely with improving the outcomes that many cavers now enjoy.  There is still more work to do and further improvements to be made of course.

This is an important thing to recognise. The old Dales system was inflexible. If you wanted to stay on the right side of the agreements but the cave you had waited ages to receive a permit for, was prone to inclement weather on the day of your visit you would often be faced with either visiting the same old other cave yet again, or pirate access elsewhere and have that nagging feeling that this could land up as someone else's problem if you got found out. Now I can check (on my phone) the excellent CNCC website, cancel my permit and do the right thing and look for valid alternatives.

Also ridiculous was the notion that on certain times of the year I could walk on open access land right to a cave entrance but to proceed any further as a caver was prohibited because 'out of season'! Madness.

As it stands now it's dead simple thanks to the hard work of the volunteers.  :kiss2:

 

[Oceanrower]

Snip

Its a real shame that the forum just ends up with so many conflicting political views rather than discussing caving in a more practical sense. Photos which I have almost given up on. Digs which seldom get mentioned here and trip reports. Its a lot about Committees and points of view rather than caving.

/snip

I can?t help feeling this is a little rich seeing as you started this thread knowing, let?s be honest, exactly how it would go?

 

[AR]

One final personal observation of mine. Stated here that %23 of BCA members voted " for ". Hardly an overwhelming mandate in my view.

That was on a response rate from the membership of about a third, which is similar to the turnout for last week's by-election, and for that matter, your average council election has a lower still turnout. Of those who voted, the vote was around 2-1 in favour. I do not for one moment wish to speculate on the motivation (or lack thereof) of those who didn't return a vote, or what their feelings on the matter were, but the fact remains that of those eligible to cast a vote on the matter who took the trouble to do so, a very clear majority wanted the BCA to pursue the matter of CRoW.

 

[Stu]

I shan't add any more to this because as usual it has deteriorated into an us and them argument with those who shout the loudest holding sway.

To be fair the 'loudest' voice it could fairly be said was mrodoc who had his piece published in Descent. The opinion hasn't exactly been cancelled.

"I can't imagine why you can't see that. Of course, you could apologise. But I'm not holding my breath." This a quote from our  "wordsmith " friend. I am sorry I wont be saying sorry for my intro. here though I must be more careful about my grammar. A classic case of " shoot the messenger " from my point of view. Its a real shame that the forum just ends up with so many conflicting political views...

There's an apparent contradiction here surely? mrodoc for want of a better expression, poked the nest with a big stick. For what reason? I'm not really sure because it actually didn't, to my mind, add anything new to the debate. You yourself entered into the fray and didn't like David's response or tone (David was probably a bit robust but to be fair to him his work has been criticised, in print, as a waste of time and effort...). The contradiction appears to be, you think it's a shame that the forum becomes polarised. But at the same time you're doing your best to aid and abet that division with statements like the one below - "hardly an overwhelming mandate".

..rather than discussing caving in a more practical sense. Photos which I have almost given up on. Digs which seldom get mentioned here and trip reports. Its a lot about Committees and points of view rather than caving.

I mean this respectfully; stop moaning about the state of the forum (sum of the parts etc.) and get your stuff posted!  It might make a welcome distraction for us all! 

One final personal observation of mine. Stated here that %23 of BCA members voted " for ". Hardly an overwhelming mandate in my view.

Well I went caving last night despite feeling unwell . This week George Clooney stated that anything that loses him a minute of sleep is not worth the effort. For a similiar reason I will now give the forum a break from my photos and ramblings.

Be honest, mrodoc and yourself are not fans of BCA doing its CRoW thing. We know that, we get it. But take your own advice, don't lose any sleep over it. It's been explained many times that BCA aren't looking to chuck the baby out with the bath-water. Caves that CRoW might effect but require, on balance, extra protection it can be administered on a case by case basis. Literally, apart from some admin. nothing much will change in those areas that people are concerned about.

 

[David Rose]

This is just hilarious. Old Ruminator starts a thread that slags off people have done a vast amount of voluntary work for the BCA with a lot more still to do and then retires hurt because he gets some pushback.

PATHETIC.

 

[Badlad]

Can I just direct folk who are fed up with this particular thread to stories on some of our digs.  These have all been posted and dug this year by our group of Dales diggers.  There is one more new thread to start on a recent breakthrough and me and Franklin will get to work on that as soon as we can.

https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=27942.0

https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=28023.0

https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=27921.0

https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=28001.0

 

[Shapatti]

This is just hilarious. Old Ruminator starts a thread that slags off people have done a vast amount of voluntary work for the BCA with a lot more still to do and then retires hurt because he gets some pushback.

PATHETIC.

Always nice to see people on both sides of the argument showing their true faces on an open forum 

To further that comment, I'm not taking sides on this, just found this was the easiest one to quote...
I've sat back and watched this thread with great amusement as it devolves further and further into less polite comments...
I've always found that the best way to come out better off in an argument/debate is to remain above more schoolyard style tactics so that it doesn't complicate your message and efforts... It also then shows you to be the 'better person', at least in those terms...

Perhaps this thread would benefit from being locked and closed so that it doesn't devolve further down the spiral it seems to be...

 

[fishes 1]

Lets give the OR a break. There are many viewpoints of CROW and no clear right or wrong. He is entitled to his opinion without all this childish bickering.

I value the OR's contribution to this forum and hope he continues to post here.

 

[droid]

This is just hilarious. Old Ruminator starts a thread that slags off people have done a vast amount of voluntary work for the BCA with a lot more still to do and then retires hurt because he gets some pushback.

PATHETIC.

For crying out loud.

More playground stuff.

 

[Badlad]

[warning]Some posters have been contacted privately about the tone used in this thread.  Enough has been said on the topic and it has been locked for the good of us all.  As for CRoW there is another thread running on the case settlement but please keep that civil.
Thank you[/warning]