Descent Magazine

[paul]

Absolutely, that would be a great idea. Perhaps something along the lines of Wikopedia where users can update and modify entries would be useful. Going back to the debate earlier in this thread, this is where the internet has a big advantage. For caving guides it is desirable for them to be bang up to date: a web guide could even give hazards particular of that day, such as weather and bad air problems for example. By contrast guide books rapidly go out of date when the diggers are hard at it!

The only problem with this is that people would concentrate on the larger, well-known systems, I think. With the definitive guides (Caves of The Peak District, Northern Caves 1,2,3 etc.) all caves are recorded even if they are tiny or no longer exist.

For example, there are at least 93 entrances of one sort or another in Stoney Middleton, some of more interest than others. I bet only a handful would be described in any guide of a contributary nature.

Obviously finding the people to write, pay, host it etc. will be the difficult part....

Very true. Then there's the other argument about losing the data when the people hosting the site lose interest, etc.

In my opinion it would be nice to have both the definitive guides plus a wiki website for updates, This would assist in keeping the information up to date and also help when republishing time comes around again.

 

[dunc]

Obviously finding the people to write, pay, host it etc. will be the difficult part....

Cost is always the biggest factor and the one that puts most people of, time comes a close second!

..

The only problem with this is that people would concentrate on the larger, well-known systems, I think. With the definitive guides (Caves of The Peak District, Northern Caves 1,2,3 etc.) all caves are recorded even if they are tiny or no longer exist.

Precisely. The need for a record of ALL caves exists, admittedly not everyone will visit them but it still needs doing otherwise they will be lost.. If we were ramblers/mtbers/4x4ers/etc we would be up in arms at the thought of the defenitive map being dumped and restricted in copies (as are Peak Caves/Northern Caves) - perhaps a definitve 'map' (record) of caves needs sorting out..?

 

[kay]

www.cavedatabase.co.uk

has a suitable structure, but no-one seems interested in populating it!

 

[dunc]

www.cavedatabase.co.uk
has a suitable structure, but no-one seems interested in populating it!

It does indeed but, where do we get the information for populating it...??? Grid Refs are one thing but a bit more information is always useful and more preferable..
From my experience the authors of Northern Caves are not keen to see their work populated in a general manner such as this, unless they suddenly have a change of heart..
So where does the information come from, bearing in mind the average caver doesn't visit all caves only the classic/sporty trips..?

 

[kay]

The Northern Caves authors presumably hold the copyright so, even if there were a mutt willing to transcribe, it isn't possible. So there aren't a lot of options except, in effect, repeat the work.

No, the average caver doesn't visit all the caves. But cavers come in lots of shapes and sizes. Some like the sporting aspect, the physical challenge, others like exploring and seeing what's down there. I don't do vertical, so, being based in Yorkshire, that means I inevitably do non-classic caves - and I'm not the only one.

I don't think it's feasible to replicate Northern Caves. But over time one could build up a worthwhile database.

The ideal solution is, of course, Northern Caves on the web, together with updatesfor all caves giving extensions, current accessibility etc.

 

[andymorgan]

In my opinion I think the smaller caves are the most likely to be updated: i.e. it is quicker to write up a description about smaller caves than larger ones. Also locals are more likely to be personally interested in these smaller sites.
However is not having the smaller caves a problem? In the Mendips 'The Complete Caves of Mendip' was last published in 1977, which contained every small cave. This was superseded by 'Mendip Underground', which did not detail every small cave but spent more pages detailing the larger caves, which in my opinion makes it a much stronger guide.
I would rather have more detail about larger caves than a 20 metre long hole that I would only put my head in when i am walking a dog past it!

 

[paul]

I would rather have more detail about larger caves than a 20 metre long hole that I would only put my head in when i am walking a dog past it!

And how many caves that were 20 metres long or shorter at one time are now major systems thanks to digging or investigation? What about minor swallets which take water and having been traced lead cavers to investigate connecting systems?

If all you want is a "tick list" type of book with the major caves in each area then that's fine. There is a definite use for that type of bool especially for cavers new to an area.

But I think it is vital to have a definitive guide as well. We need a record of all caves not just the popular or major ones. As I said, ther are at least 93 entrances in Stoney Middleton alone in the Peak. It would be a sad loss to lose all memory and knowledge of these mines and caves together with their associated history of discovery and exploration, even if they weren't visited very often.

My club is currently digging in Owl Hole in Dowal Dale in the Peak and has quite a bit of success (see the latest issue of Descent, which brings us back on topic!). The last issue of Caves of The Peak District listed this cave as "Lost" as it was filled with rubbish.

Luckily there are plans to issue an updated version of Cave of The Peak District and long may it continue.

 

[cap n chris]

It would be a sad loss to lose all memory and knowledge of these mines and caves together with their associated history of discovery and exploration, even if they weren't visited very often.

Big agreement from me; have already been in touch with National Trust about "losing" caves under their land management to encroaching impenetrable thickets of bramble, hawthorn etc.. All around the country we see woodland/scrub growing, unchecked, at a steady rate and within twenty years there's going to be masses of the countryside which is effectively off limits without some serious machinery or machetes. Some of these lesser caves are certainly going to be potential dig sites of the future - unless we lose digging altogether with possible stringent legislation affecting the use of bang stopping progress.

 

[Mole]

unless we lose digging altogether with possible stringent legislation affecting the use of bang stopping progress.

Has anyone tried any of the commercial alternatives to bang ?

 

[cap n chris]

Mole, I presume you mean things like snappers as alternatives to bang? If so, then yes these do get used, but:

a) They're a very expensive way of doing a big job slowly.
b) They don't work on bedrock, only boulders (and then there's a limit on what they can break apart).
c) You need lots of drill batteries and that can be heavy work dragging around underground on a frequent basis.
d) There probably isn't a real workable and cheap alternative to "proper" bang.

 

[Mole]

One of them (PBC?) has been used for shaft-sinking,according to a website I looked at.

I have in the past hand drilled 3/8" holes,and rolled out a 1/4 of a stick to allow it to fit the holes,but it's a pita.

 

[andymorgan]

I would rather have more detail about larger caves than a 20 metre long hole that I would only put my head in when i am walking a dog past it!

Ok this comment was a bit flippant. If the truth be told, I would like to find out what cave I put my head down, when I get back home! Without question several caves have been considerably enlarged and become major cave systems.
I love my guide books and pick them up a few times a week dreaming of potential trips... I would like to see them regularly updated every five years at least. but that I don't think that the smaller sites will be 'lost'. Many of these smaller sites are passed on via word of mouth (i.e. most locals know of them) and are usually documented in club journals and of course they are still documented in the old guide books.
Anyway I am getting fftopic:. Bringing back in Descent magazine I think the printed word will continue to be better than the internet for many years to come!
(excuse my ramblings)

 

[George North]

The ideal solution is, of course, Northern Caves on the web, together with updatesfor all caves giving extensions, current accessibility etc.

Word on the grapevine was that some of NC was going to be put on the web as a pay to download style PDF - this could be complete BS however!

As luck would have it a lot of the Easegill/Leck Fell information is allready available on the RRCPC website, and is kept up to date as more stuff is found. It's a shame some of the other clubs haven't done similar things for other areas - but I guess cavers have always been a bit technologically backwards :wink:

http://www.rrcpc.org.uk/easegill/index.htm

Personally I think that paper and ink still has many years of life left yet. I too love my guidebooks! (I see them more as friends than books. They talk to me in my mind...) And besides you couldn't lug your PC across Casterton Fell, and leave it in the entrance of Wretched Rabbit whilst you go caving and expect it to still work. And paper books have other practical uses too. For instance if you arrive back at the farm after a quick trip down Lancaster Hole and you're a bit cold, then you could burn a useless book that nobody ever uses to keep warm (Caves of the Peak District for instance.)

GN.

 

[paul]

...after a quick trip down Lancaster Hole and you're a bit cold, then you could burn a useless book that nobody ever uses to keep warm (Caves of the Peak District for instance.)
GN.

Them's fighting words! :bash: :trout:

 

[kay]

In my opinion I think the smaller caves are the most likely to be updated: i.e. it is quicker to write up a description about smaller caves than larger ones.

You mention 20m - that's l-o-n-g compared to many in Northern Caves :wink:

Certainly if I'm wandering round and find an 15 inch high opening with 3 inches of water in the bottom, I much prefer being able to look it up than to crawl in only to discover it becomes impassable afeter 8 feet. Yes, I know I have Northern Caves, but what about the next generation of cavers?

have already been in touch with National Trust about "losing" caves under their land management to encroaching impenetrable thickets of bramble, hawthorn etc

What about the other problem of losing caves through being used as a convenient rubbish dump or deliberately filled in for safety reasons? To what extent should the 'national heritage' side of preserving caves over-ride the landowner's rights?

 

[cap n chris]

What about the other problem of losing caves through being used as a convenient rubbish dump or deliberately filled in for safety reasons? To what extent should the 'national heritage' side of preserving caves over-ride the landowner's rights?

"Convenient rubbish dumps" are under the spotlight since the Environment Agency passed legislation stating that by (IIRC) February 2006 farmers must clean up their land or face public whipping (or somesuch). Perhaps Hughie can shed more light on this one.

 

[andymorgan]

The RRCPC website is excellent site. Another good online guide site for the Dales is http://www.braemoor.co.uk/cavingtrip/directory.shtml

Isn't the Peak district known to cavers as the place they pass on the way to the Dales?

 

[paul]

Isn't the Peak district known to cavers as the place they pass on the way to the Dales?

No, the Derbyshire Dales are IN the Peak District!

Mind you, we can always pop over to the Yorkshire Dales when we want to have a look at shorter shafts...

 

[Cumbrian Neil]

Personally I think that paper and ink still has many years of life left yet. I too love my guidebooks! (I see them more as friends than books. They talk to me in my mind...) And besides you couldn't lug your PC across Casterton Fell, and leave it in the entrance of Wretched Rabbit whilst you go caving and expect it to still work.

Nevermind crossing a fell, unless you have wireless, you can't sit on the throne and page through a guide either.

CN.

 

[mudman]

The Cave Database is probably almost complete with respect to the known Scottish undergound features. It started out as the on-line version of the Scottish Cave Registry that is kept by Dick Grindley of The Grampian Speleology Group. It has had a fair few updates since then with some new caves added, some descriptions added and some photos uploaded.
The point about copyright though is a very good one. My opinion is that descriptions etc. should not be copied out of a guidebook. However, published names and locations are effectively in the public domain and so can be used so long as a reference to the guidebook can the used. The Cave Database does have the facility to add references that can point the user to the relevant source material.
I'm afraid that I got a bit disillusioned with it and haven't done anything that I had planned to do. But, if people wanted to use it to record British cave systems, then I'm open to suggestions.