Different harness types, Rope access body harnesses.

[Space Doubt Caver]

Has anyone here ever used rope access harnesses instead of caving harnesses?

For instance the Petzl AVAO BOD harness, it's a full body harness: https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Professional/Harnesses/AVAO-BOD-European-version

Has anyone here used a harness like this for caving, what are the pro's and con's to using harnesses like these, and could they be used for caving?
This question is 100% curiosity. (One for the caving & rope-access peeps.)

I have Always used caving specific harnesses, and never questioned why, Each of us sticks to the usual caving harnesses but are there other options?

 

[BigDyl]

I’ve never used a full body harness, but it looks like it would be restrictive when horizontally caving

 

[Oceanrower]

I use an Avao for work. Great harness.

Would I take it down a cave? Not a chance. Too bulky. To heavy. And would get ripped to pieces in moments.

 

[Mark]

Yes I have used them occasionally, (ones that are too far gone for work) they are a proper pain in the arse, too bulky, too many gear loops and not ideal for sneaking into the washing machine.

 

[Space Doubt Caver]

not ideal for sneaking into the washing machine.

 

[Space Doubt Caver]

Yes I have used them occasionally, (ones that are too far gone for work) they are a proper pain in the arse, too bulky, too many gear loops

That makes a lot of sense, that covers one of the reasons i was interested, is the amount of gear loops, and the comfy shoulder straps, but it does look bulky for sure

 

[Steve Clark]

I’ve added the leg loop padding from a Petzl Newton fall arest harness (available to buy separately) to the leg loops of a petzl Aven caving harness.

It makes it more comfortable for not much extra bulk. Will see how it wears over time.

 

[Space Doubt Caver]

I’ve added the leg loop padding from a Petzl Newton fall arest harness (available to buy separately) to the leg loops of a petzl Aven caving harness.

It makes it more comfortable for not much extra bulk. Will see how it wears over time.

wow that is certainly something to think about, do you have a link to where i can buy those leg loop pads

 

[Rob]

I also use an Avao for work and also would not want to take it underground.

On top of the above comments it's also worth pointing out that the croll position is very high, so prussiking is quite a lot less efficient/productive.

 

[KBrook]

Former rope access worker. Also wouldn't use a work harness underground as the previous answers state. Too bulky and not efficient for prusiking compared to a standard caving harness. If comforts is what you after don't be decoves by that padding the main thing that make working on a harness better is the seat (petzl podium is an example) but I would take one of those underground

If you are deadset on trying though here are a couple to consider.

- Petzl falcon ascent. Lightest harness I came across compared to the avo. Plus it's like a standard caving harness in terms of positioning the kroll.
- Singing rock 3D standard. Basically a copy of the old petzl navaho which was a bloody good harness.

 

[Space Doubt Caver]

Former rope access worker. Also wouldn't use a work harness underground as the previous answers state. Too bulky and not efficient for prusiking compared to a standard caving harness. If comforts is what you after don't be decoves by that padding the main thing that make working on a harness better is the seat (petzl podium is an example) but I would take one of those underground

If you are deadset on trying though here are a couple to consider.

- Petzl falcon ascent. Lightest harness I came across compared to the avo. Plus it's like a standard caving harness in terms of positioning the kroll.
- Singing rock 3D standard. Basically a copy of the old petzl navaho which was a bloody good harness.

I wouldn't say i'm deadset on trying, i'm just very curious, because i use a caving harness with a chest strap and on long prussiks the chest strap rubs a lot,

I've never questioned why we used a caving harness and chest rig separately, and not a full body harness because you would think it would be safer, and easier to being a full body harness but by the answers which have some serious good advice show this is not the case because of croll positioning, and the gear loops could get caught while squeezing down a passage. (which most of us don't speak about it but when going through tight spaces we take our harnesses and SRT gear off) depending whats on the other side of the passage.

I have no plans to change the equipment i'm using, it's just rope access guys can sometimes spend hours on one rope working, and this intrigues me because those harnesses are designed in a way to prevent suspension trauma.

So my line of thinking including the information from the above answers, is leaning towards suspension trauma prevention because it can happen if someone is stuck on a rope.

 

[Pete K]

Although I completely agree with the folks saying that rope access harnesses are not ideal for general caving, I just want to chip in with a quick observation based on a few years of teaching SRT.
The right harness for someone depends what caving you do and what you find actually works best for you. I've coached people with all sorts of varied setups based on climbing harnesses, rope access harnesses, and 'normal' SRT ones. All work fine for SRT with some tweaks and practice, and some of the people I've trained over the years actually needed to use a comfy harness with high centre of gravity to allow them to effectively move up and down a rope at all. This might have been due to body morphology or fitness/conditioning factors, but sometimes it was pure preference for the comfort over the pure efficiency. I often do DCA bolting trips in a Petzl Falcon SRT setup, inspections/bolting in the slate mines in a Petzl Astro (but that is 'work' most of the time so I have to) and regular sport caving and work in a range of 'normal' SRT harnesses. All work fine for SRT. All let me do what I need to, even if some are more efficient than others. Would I take my £300 Astro in a thrutchy tight cave, no. But if you never did that type of caving, size may not matter. If I'm hanging around anywhere for more than a few minutes of work though, the single most important thing I'll never leave home without is the podium seat!
Suspension trauma will occur in any harness if you're immobile or incapacitated. It's just a matter of time. If you're active and moving, it's not an issue. The bigger harnesses are more about comfort during the work or movements, not eliminating suspension trauma issues for unconscious casualties.

Worth me also mentioning, if you're having issues with chest strap rub, try borrowing a 'bra' style one like the MTDE or Petzl ones. You might find that a lot more comfortable.

 

[Space Doubt Caver]

Although I completely agree with the folks saying that rope access harnesses are not ideal for general caving, I just want to chip in with a quick observation based on a few years of teaching SRT.
The right harness for someone depends what caving you do and what you find actually works best for you. I've coached people with all sorts of varied setups based on climbing harnesses, rope access harnesses, and 'normal' SRT ones. All work fine for SRT with some tweaks and practice, and some of the people I've trained over the years actually needed to use a comfy harness with high centre of gravity to allow them to effectively move up and down a rope at all. This might have been due to body morphology or fitness/conditioning factors, but sometimes it was pure preference for the comfort over the pure efficiency. I often do DCA bolting trips in a Petzl Falcon SRT setup, inspections/bolting in the slate mines in a Petzl Astro (but that is 'work' most of the time so I have to) and regular sport caving and work in a range of 'normal' SRT harnesses. All work fine for SRT. All let me do what I need to, even if some are more efficient than others. Would I take my £300 Astro in a thrutchy tight cave, no. But if you never did that type of caving, size may not matter. If I'm hanging around anywhere for more than a few minutes of work though, the single most important thing I'll never leave home without is the podium seat!
Suspension trauma will occur in any harness if you're immobile or incapacitated. It's just a matter of time. If you're active and moving, it's not an issue. The bigger harnesses are more about comfort during the work or movements, not eliminating suspension trauma issues for unconscious casualties.

Worth me also mentioning, if you're having issues with chest strap rub, try borrowing a 'bra' style one like the MTDE or Petzl ones. You might find that a lot more comfortable.

that is some amazing insight and thank you for the chest rig suggestion, i've been looking for something better fitting 🫶

 

[pwhole]

I use the MTDE Garma chest harness for caving, as the Petzl straps were too short for me and were just agony. The Garma is more expensive, but very comfy, and it has gear loops too, so very useful for bolting etc., when you need a lot of stuff hanging around.

I generally wouldn't use my rope access harnesses for caving due to the reasons above, but also as the padding absorbs water to some degree, and would be a bugger to clean ingrained mud off - I doubt it would survive severe abrasion either. The high waistband, whilst good for support whilst hanging around, is quite restrictive when walking, and would probably make moving around in tight awkward spots far more so. I used my Astro when we re-did the Owl Hole bolt-climb as there was some hanging around involved, but it was also outdoors, dry and clean

Photo by Pete K.

Astro

 

[Space Doubt Caver]

I use the MTDE Garma chest harness for caving, as the Petzl straps were too short for me and were just agony. The Garma is more expensive, but very comfy, and it has gear loops too, so very useful for bolting etc., when you need a lot of stuff hanging around.

I generally wouldn't use my rope access harnesses for caving due to the reasons above, but also as the padding absorbs water to some degree, and would be a bugger to clean ingrained mud off - I doubt it would survive severe abrasion either. The high waistband, whilst good for support whilst hanging around, is quite restrictive when walking, and would probably make moving around in tight awkward spots far more so. I used my Astro when we re-did the Owl Hole bolt-climb as there was some hanging around involved, but it was also outdoors, dry and clean

Photo by Pete K.

The MTDE garma does look good, i found it, Starless river are selling them:https://starlessriver.com/shop/mtde-garma/

I think there reasonably priced for what they are, I love that it has gear loops, thank you for the suggestion it's definitely going to make my SRT more comfortable, I can see by it's design it's going to be much better for me 💯 🫶

 

[Steve Clark]

I had some issues with being top heavy when I first started SRT. I’m also quite tall. There was no way something like a Petzl Torse was going to work, it was at least 12” short. A simple chest strap was long enough but offered very little in the way of support to keep me vertical. It was very tiring to hold myself vertical between step-ups and when resting. There was no issue with ‘efficiency’ / stroke length because I was needing to rest every few steps anyway.

I’ve since switched to an AV chest harness. This offers more support, particularly whilst resting, without constricting the chest and breathing.

I now use an adjustable foot loop. For longer pitches where I’d probably get tired, I just lengthen the foot loop. (I can quickly adjust it back if needed for changeovers / awkward re-rebels.) The longer foot loop makes the shorter step up easier, keeps the top jammer higher on the rope at the bottom of the step up and it’s a lot less effort in the arms
to keep the body vertical. More, but easier steps - and steps directed correctly, downwards.

A pantin helps too. It provides another point of stability when you move the top jammer up.

I’ve also cheated on a big free hanging pitch and put a pulley on the rope above the croll, clipped into the chest harness. This is a pain for re-belays, but it will help get you out of a deep hole if you’re knackered.

Unfortunately, a lot of the standard thinking with SRT doesn’t always work with all body types. It’s great to see instructors experimenting with folks to find setups that work.

 

[Space Doubt Caver]

I had some issues with being top heavy when I first started SRT. I’m also quite tall. There was no way something like a Petzl Torse was going to work, it was at least 12” short. A simple chest strap was long enough but offered very little in the way of support to keep me vertical. It was very tiring to hold myself vertical between step-ups and when resting. There was no issue with ‘efficiency’ / stroke length because I was needing to rest every few steps anyway.

I’ve since switched to an AV chest harness. This offers more support, particularly whilst resting, without constricting the chest and breathing.

I now use an adjustable foot loop. For longer pitches where I’d probably get tired, I just lengthen the foot loop. (I can quickly adjust it back if needed for changeovers / awkward re-rebels.) The longer foot loop makes the shorter step up easier, keeps the top jammer higher on the rope at the bottom of the step up and it’s a lot less effort in the arms
to keep the body vertical. More, but easier steps - and steps directed correctly, downwards.

A pantin helps too. It provides another point of stability when you move the top jammer up.

I’ve also cheated on a big free hanging pitch and put a pulley on the rope above the croll, clipped into the chest harness. This is a pain for re-belays, but it will help get you out of a deep hole if you’re knackered.

Unfortunately, a lot of the standard thinking with SRT doesn’t always work with all body types. It’s great to see instructors experimenting with folks to find setups that work.

I've never considered using a pantin before, i have seen others use one, to be fair i'm going to buy one because when i've been on rope recently, (Practicing on a public footpath bridge in Cilcain, before i go underground for an SRT trip, as i haven't done much caving since the pandemic and i thought it was me being rusty but when i got home i saw the marks from the strap)

I found my strap had been rubbing my chest and back, but not only that it was making me lean back when i raise my hand ascender, and at the start of the prussik, the rope wasn't feeding through my chest ascender, and that's what got me looking into other options and asking and i think a pantin would certainly make a difference, and one of the recommended chest straps by one of you amazing folk, the MTDE does look really comfy

 

[pwhole]

Get one, you'll never regret it. I use a Camp Turbofoot which I think is even better, but it's a bit heavier. But once you have a foot-jammer you can ropewalk, using alternate steps, and can technically cover almost twice the distance in the same time, though it is more tiring - though nowhere near twice as tiring. It is harder work hanging in empty space, and I wouldn't do it in Titan, but against a wall it's easy, and in a narrow rift or a tight mine stope, it's wonderful, as you're held vertical. My favourite is the Gentlewoman's shaft at Masson, as it's mostly a body-tight slot with ledges, but with a foot jammer on it's like climbing a ladder.

You won't need the chest jammer set as tight either, as the foot-jammer counterbalances your bottom end, and the ideal position is 'relaxed standing', which does feel odd after always frogging, but you get used to it. The trick is to hold the rope above the hand jammer with your free hand, and then essentially you have four points of attachment, for maximum advantage. I did try it with two (Basic) hand-jammers once, but they kept banging into each other!

 

[Space Doubt Caver]

Get one, you'll never regret it. I use a Camp Turbofoot which I think is even better, but it's a bit heavier. But once you have a foot-jammer you can ropewalk, using alternate steps, and can technically cover almost twice the distance in the same time, though it is more tiring - though nowhere near twice as tiring. It is harder work hanging in empty space, and I wouldn't do it in Titan, but against a wall it's easy, and in a narrow rift or a tight mine stope, it's wonderful, as you're held vertical. My favourite is the Gentlewoman's shaft at Masson, as it's mostly a body-tight slot with ledges, but with a foot jammer on it's like climbing a ladder.

You won't need the chest jammer set as tight either, as the foot-jammer counterbalances your bottom end, and the ideal position is 'relaxed standing', which does feel odd after always frogging, but you get used to it. The trick is to hold the rope above the hand jammer with your free hand, and then essentially you have four points of attachment, for maximum advantage. I did try it with two (Basic) hand-jammers once, but they kept banging into each other!

Where can i buy the camp turbofoot? i can't see it in Starless River or Inglesport, I would be grateful for a good suggestion if you wouldn't mind

 

[mikem]

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