Falling on Cows Tails

[pwhole]

I use the rope-access style of a short loop tied with two mirrored overhands between my cowstails, and that's the only part that has a snapgate on, and I use this for traverses and awkward rebelays, with the other two screwgates used as backups either side of the anchor - I'm very strict with myself. My 'safety cord' to the jammer/footloop is essentially a duplicate of my long cowstail, fastened with a maillon to the D-ring, so I essentially have four cowstails. I don't find any of this to be bulky or unduly heavy - I often have a drill and bolting kit hanging off me, so this level of weight-saving is largely irrelevant. But I've had the same pair of Petzl Lockers on my cowstails for 12 years now, and they're still fine, with regular cleaning. Just tying up some new ones now, actually, so happy to send a photo in later (I'm off out now).

Incidentally, when doing rope-access work with company-provided kit, which invariably didn't have a 'cord of shame' attachment (and often have cowstails that you wouldn't believe possible), I have dropped my hand-hammer and footloop twice - one was eight floors into an internal courtyard with no ground-level access, so I had to asbeil down to get it just so I could get back up to the roof. In a cave this might not have been possible, but it proves the need for a permanent connection.

 

[tomferry]

So I have been following this and until now I was a proud snap gate owner ! I ended up going to do some tests in my garage, this is what I have found out

https://flic.kr/p/2oQQEVf

It appears change is in order


I have to admit I couldn’t get this to happen on rope . The shackle is a replica fixed aid

 

[BikinGlynn]

So I have been following this and until now I was a proud snap gate owner ! I ended up going to do some tests in my garage, this is what I have found out

https://flic.kr/p/2oQQEVf

It appears change is in order


I have to admit I couldn’t get this to happen on rope . The shackle is a replica fixed aid

Interesting, b careful if u r going upside down on any ropes

 

[tomferry]

Interesting, b careful if u r going upside down on any ropes

I agree mate this is not a simple fault to happen . You need to traverse along up then full backwards with 1 point of attachment. This may indicate why thankfully it’s not a common incident.

 

[Benfool]

I agree mate this is not a simple fault to happen . You need to traverse along up then full backwards with 1 point of attachment. This may indicate why thankfully it’s not a common incident.

The Fall

I lie confused, disorientated. The mind is furiously trying to figure out where I am, how did I get here? Involuntary groans leave my body f...

welshrandomadventures.blogspot.com

 

[BikinGlynn]

Interesting thread.
So would a twist gate be considered a safe option on a cows?
In all honesty if I was using a full screw gate, I doubt Id ever screw it shut!
One could also argue that if this potentially requires a second hand to fully close or open (if its covered in mud or you are cold & wet for example) that would render you in a more dangerous situation though I know that is unlikely.

 

[tomferry]

I have ordered 2 of these . https://www.inglesport.com/product/dmm-shadow-quicklock-carabiner/

Also from now on I will be taking a screw gate with me for a 3rd cow tail on a foot loop option .

I do think I would struggle to use full screw gates I must admit .

 

[tomferry]

The Fall

I lie confused, disorientated. The mind is furiously trying to figure out where I am, how did I get here? Involuntary groans leave my body f...

welshrandomadventures.blogspot.com

Thanks for sharing this .

 

[IanWalker]

Might be of interest

It was of interest. I use dynamic rope cowstails which I keep clean and knots loose-ish. I think the video is a good visual reminder of why this might be a good idea. But I don't think it shows anything we didnt as a community already know.

 

[IanWalker]

Regarding the handjammer safety cord. I don't use one; I clip my handjammer with a cowstail when I want to use it. I like the flexibility. I clip the jammer to my harness side loop when not needed; I do the same with my stop and braking crab. I like that it is out of the way.

I have in the past dropped my jammer down a pitch, and I have also prussiked up a pitch forgetting to clip it. I don't think these 'prove' a safety cord is necessary, but i do agree it would be a help avoid these two hazards. On the flip side, falling onto a handjammer is not good practice so what is the purpose of having it connected permanently? Is it solely to avoid dropping it?

I have only two cowstails with snaplinks, which are quick and convenient to use and I dont have any false feeling of security. I know there are mechanisms when they could come off. Just as screwgate barrels might not be done up and even could hold a gate open.

All these things being said, I still feel that loss of control when descending is likely the most dangerous SRT maneuver. Do statistics show this? I don't know but would be interested to hear from someone more knowledgable.

Even with my kit setup, all these SRT risks seem well controlled compared to the likelihood and outcome of falling off an unprotected climb or slipping on an unprotected traverse. Again I'd be interested in other peoples thoughts on this

 

[phizz4]

I have ordered 2 of these . https://www.inglesport.com/product/dmm-shadow-quicklock-carabiner/

Also from now on I will be taking a screw gate with me for a 3rd cow tail on a foot loop option .

I do think I would struggle to use full screw gates I must admit .

I've been using these, and earlier versions (as far back as Clog) of twistlocks for years without any issues whatsoever. Never needed two hands to undo them, don't do as much SRT these days but they got me down The Berger, and back out again, safely.

 

[Badlad]

I use snaplinks and am quite happy doing so. There I said it. I understand the situation where they might unattach and I don't consider them lethal as some have described in this thread. Much depends on knowledge, experience and use. I monitor and supervise rope access techs every week. They all use screwgates and on many occasions the screwgate is not done up. Cavers surely do the same. We're all at potential risk of krabs becoming unattached. Being aware of equipment limitations and surroundings are more important than using one or another.

I wouldn't suggest a novice SRT'er uses snaplinks, but I do notice that many cavers prefer novices to use a Petzl Simple - a device with no braking function, should the novice user loose control of the rope. That can also be lethal.

If we wish to truly minimise risk why not adopt descenders which fail to safe such as the Petzl ID and triple/twist lock karabiners Why not use a second back up rope and trail an ASAP. These would reduce the risk further but no one considers these options seriously. We all accept a level of risk which we manage or mitigate depending on our knowledge and ability.

My point being that risk is a multi-dimensional aspect of caving. It needs vastly different consideration depending of whether you are within the 'professional' caving sector or a mere experienced amateur and pretty much everything in between.

There is a risk, I suppose, that no one will understand my point

 

[cavemanmike]

I can’t see the point in trimming down your SRT kit by a matter of grams, loosing weight and keeping fit and being efficient in your SRT is far more effective . Just saying 😉😉

 

[cap n chris]

But I don't think it shows anything we didnt as a community already know.

There's not so much of a community more a hotch potch of disparate/various tribal allegiances, solo operators and grey areas; furthermore you'll perhaps be surprised that many operators know very little about many things.

 

[cap n chris]

I can’t see the point in trimming down your SRT kit by a matter of grams, loosing weight and keeping fit and being efficient in your SRT is far more effective . Just saying 😉😉

Have you ever been snagged in narrow caves while ascending/descending? Removing excess loops of kit from your rig is a wiser move; the "matter of grams" isn't the issue.

 

[cap n chris]

I have ordered 2 of these . https://www.inglesport.com/product/dmm-shadow-quicklock-carabiner/

Also from now on I will be taking a screw gate with me for a 3rd cow tail on a foot loop option .

I do think I would struggle to use full screw gates I must admit .

Depending on whim I use either Grivel twin-gates (which I flippin' love and which are fabulous value for money) or Petzl Vertigo wire gate auto-locking carabiners. There are others (I vaguely recall a magnetic variant but CBA to look it up at the mo'). Triacts etc. don't seem to enjoy clay so I long since ceased prancing around with those.

 

[Fulk]

Ian Walker:

All these things being said, I still feel that loss of control when descending is likely the most dangerous SRT maneuver. Do statistics show this?

As far as I am aware, nobody's ever come to grief through prusiking out of control (!), though a few unfortunate individuals have come to grief through abseiling out of control, so I think that you're right here, Ian. There were several instance a few years ago of people squeezing the handle of a Stop and going out of control on descent, but I haven't heard of any such incidence for some time now (several years).

And, of course, manoeuvres such as passing a knot or a rebelay are easier when prusiking than when abseiling.

 

[Ian Adams]

I use snaplinks and am quite happy doing so. There I said it.

Aaaaaah, and there it is.

Some one makes a statement (the OP’s video, not the OP) that seemingly commands common sense and tacitly demands compliance and acceptance (failing which you will be outcast). It’s a clear conflation but, yet, no one dares challenge it (not even me before I attract a hail of bullets). The result : a scrabble of folk all desperate to show that they are willing to comply lest they feel inadequate and stupid.

But, yet, the truth is masked and hidden, forcing us to either accept the principles laid out by a “voice” (the video) or be damned by our peers.

Sound familiar? We see it every day in Politics.

Snapgates are perfectly fine in their place when used correctly. They are also a “choice”.

It's a matter for the user to make that determination not someone else who thinks differently.

A case can always be made for safety. A counter case can also be made to state it is unnecessary. It’s not for someone else to impose their values on you – it's for you to take responsibility for your own actions.

If a person is “teaching” someone else (as has been stated throughout this thread) then teach the options, risks and responsibilities. Teach everything, don’t just impose your values on others.

If you are crossing a narrow path of 5 feet in a mine with an optional traverse line, would you screw in, clip in or just “risk it”. See what I mean?

Ian

 

[mikem]

The problem there is that the teacher rarely knows all the permutations, so should teach the safest system they know

 

[Ian Adams]

The problem there is that the teacher rarely knows all the permutations, so should teach the safest system they know

You are making a statement of fact. Evidence please?

Your statement is also comparable to everyday scenarios, such as, "Speeding" for example. We are constantly lectured that "speeding kills". Indeed, here in Wales, we have had imposed (by Nov this year) a 20mph speed limit in all villages and towns. We are "informed" that, by reducing the speed limit to 25mph we will save the NHS 25million over 10 years.

Who made that determination?

What about 19 mph?

what about 10 mph?

What about 0 mph?

should we have an imposition that forces the safest means possible?

Ian