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Falling on Cows Tails

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
However, it is incredibly easy for the finger to nudge the gate slightly when engaging the krab, particularly when at full stretch. This can quite easily lead to the gate not actually shutting making the krab scarily weak. Now this really is dangerous.
I wouldn't describe (typically) 7kN as scarily weak. I'd say that's more than sufficient for any realistic loading. Now the breaking strength of carabiners under nose loading - _that's_ scary (and can be a few kN).
(Note that Cap n Chris is right when he suggests Petzl Vertigo krabs as perhaps the ideal ... here there is no chance of the gate being held open as described above. They are more expensive and heavier, but I do keep thinking I might switch to one of these on my long and, as a result of this thread, might even get around to it, so thanks eveyone!)
They are good, and I have a set I use in Austria where the mud makes it difficult to grip the gates on my normal twist-locks. But the gates do get stuck open on them occasionally, particularly when they get older. It's also possibly to unclip them from the rope in the same was as a snapgate (albeit it's quite a bit more difficult and can only really be done when the rope is stretched tight). I think it's harder to get them to unclip themselves from anchors and almost impossible from slack rope.

PS going back to a previous comment I use twistlocks on my cowstails, but when doing trad climbing I was perfectly happy to rig my belay with snapgates (if I had more than one piece) :)
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
Question: should newcomers to caving be inducted in the more updated methods or the ones which have existed for fifty plus years?
Yes.
If it's the latter I'll retire from bothering being an instructor. Having a duty of care incumbent upon me is a fcuking royal pain in the ass and I welcome no longer being required to legally or morally fulfil it, frankly.
The task of anyone teaching SRT (and not being paid certainly doesn't exclude them from having a duty of care, which I fully accept when I'm teaching SRT for free) is to teach people how to do SRT. At the start, the person knows no techniques. Hopefully they will soon know at least one technique. They can then go on to learn other techniques. You may not teach every person the same technique. You may decide you teach every novice the same techniques, but I certainly hope nobody tries to teach every person in the same way, because that is definitely poor teaching. Different people also sometimes need different kit to make it work well (particularly chest harnesses). There is not one universally accepted 'this is the right way' to do SRT. Plenty of people say there is: but they don't all say the same thing...

There are some techniques that are clearly unsafe and have led to lots of accidents and injuries or have a very high likelihood of causing an accident. Thus we can safely say:
- Don't use polyprop rope you bought down the hardware store for your SRT
- Don't let go of the brake rope on your Simple when abseiling
- Don't only end up on one ascender (at least on traversing sections; I don't know of any accidents on vertical ropes)
- Don't end up only attached to one crappy anchor
- Don't hang people on a single crappy pulley
- Don't climb (long?) ladders unlifelined (see the bit of Race Against Time when they get to, I think, the 70s)

There are some techniques that are explicitly warned against but don't, generally, result in a lot of accidents but which are nonetheless to be avoided most of the time. For example:
- Don't hang on one resin anchor
- Don't let go of the brake rope on your Stop when at a rebelay
- Don't belay on a Microtraxion
FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBT YOU SHOULD NOT DO ANY OF THE ABOVE (usually) AND YOU CERTAINLY SHOULDN'T BLAME ME IF YOU DO :p

Then there's things that are dangerous, because caving is dangerous, but generally considered 'safe enough' (or should be)
- going underground
- using snapgates for cowstails on traverses
- using a Simple
- rigging caves with snapgates (because you never rely on a single anchor, after all)

There's the things that are still dangerous, because as previously noted _caving is dangerous_, but are safer
- using snapgates for cowstails outside of traverses (very safe if you always use both)
- using some more secure connection for your cowstails on traverses
- using a Stop if you are experienced enough not to clutch-and-plummet/are using a new handled version (I suspect)
- using an auto-locking Rig

I think one difference between people just teaching SRT occasionally (like me) and people who have made a career of it is not so much the depth (because plenty of hard cavers have taken their SRT to much literally deeper and harder places than is reasonable to set as a standard for instructors) but the breadth of knowledge - a full understanding of all the common kit on the market for example, and its advantages and disadvantages. The same should go to techniques - different people will end up doing different things. I will be keeping my safety cord, thank you, because I like having it :p but I am more than prepared to accept people making their own choice. Generally club kit has an integrated footloop and safety cord which is an imperfect solution in many ways but we live in an imperfect world, so it makes sense to normally teach people to use what they have (for the limited amount I do). Not being able to drop things is definitely an advantage when teaching novices... but more advanced cavers are more than free to lose it if they want. Obviously that does mean they will end up on a single snapgate on traverses.

Summary: teach people so they are competent to make their own decisions! Obviously this is a long process and begins with 'this is a way'.
 

cavetroll

Member
I’ve never found acting as if you’re morally superior to be a good way to illicit change - “cord of shame” is a poor choice of language from a professional. Instructors in particular have a really delicate balance to avoid coming across as mightier than thou and it makes it much harder for the rest of us to build good relationships with the wider caving community.

I’d prefer to have a healthy adult conversation based on pros and cons. I don’t use snapgates, but I’ve also never “shamed” anyone for their SRT setup.. at work or when with friends.
 

IanWalker

Active member
Just coming back to this - to be clear, are you saying that your handjammer is not permanently tethered to your D-ring. When you want to prussik, you attached a cows-tail to the handjammer (screwgate?) and set off?

Chris.
Yep



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Going back to the first post (I’d totally list what this thread actually started at) I’d be more concerned about what effect those falls onto a jammer would have on the rope. Having done tests on jammers on new and used rope I would never consider a fall onto a toothed cam jammer, on new or used rope. Unless of course you like seeing long stretches of core above you with no sheath.I

You may have missed the point of the cord to the top jammer. Agreed falling onto a jammer is "a bad thing", however falling off entirely is considered a rather worse thing by most people
 

Ian Ball

Well-known member
I see instructors as getting paid, unless there's something going on I'm not sure of, I don't think the Cap'n is getting paid here on UkC so is he a professional here? The Cap'n could get work as a professional antagonist no doubt :)

The Cord of Shame is a bit of a fun pun from the film Up from 2009, lighten up ;-)

google cone of shame
 

Chocolate fireguard

Active member
I admit to having a Cord of Shame on my SRT kit - it maximizes the number of ways I can fasten myself onto things.
I also have my cowstail rope fastened to the central maillon by a pair of overhand knots so I can use the loop for another krab.
I don't do much SRT nowadays, but you can't have too many attachment points when using that scary ladder at Surprise View.
I do have to agree with the Cap'n about the extra bulk - I sometimes get stuck in that tight bit at the top and have to be rescued.
 

Fulk

Well-known member
s for cows tails, I do have screwgates on mine, but I only really do them up when I'm either scared, doing something with more risk than normal (ie also scared), or going to be hanging around for a while.
Agreed.
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
I'd suggest that the amount of time spent arguing about the safety or otherwise of different SRT kit set-ups, while a fun distraction from a boring working day, greatly exceeds the time spent arguing about avoiding falls or flooding, despite the latter being far more common :p
 

phizz4

Member
I have to say I have thoroughly enjoyed following this thread but nothing I’ve read has encouraged me to change my set up. Twistlock krabs on 10mm dynamic rope tied in with barrel knots (double fisherman’s?), two overhand knots at the central point, “cord of shame” from handjammer to central point, old style Stop for personal use, Rig for taking groups on ladder pitches. Works for me.
 
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