Flood pulse in Kingsdale

paul

Moderator
We also saw the water progress along Kigdsale Beck on Saturday morning. We originally planned on a trip down Diccan Pot as the forecast was for light rain and drizzle in the morning clearing up around 10:00 and remaining dry. As it hadn't stopped at 10:30 as we arrived at Selside Lane and in fact was a bit heavier, we decided to change to Plan 'B' which was Rowten Pot.

We saw that Kingsdale Beck was dry beyond Keld Head, which wasn't surprising but as we approached the layby to park for our trip in Rowten, we could see water in the beck further along the valley.

We were surprised as we walked up the valley side heading towards Rowten Pot and looked down towards Braida Garth to see the water had filled the previously dry part of the beck beyond the farm track bridge.
 

TheBitterEnd

Well-known member
What is interesting about this event is that our perception was that it had been dry for several days and that overnight it hadn't rained much, just a bit of drizzel. Just checked the CDG Vis Bot and the rain guage readings would seem to confirm that.
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
TheBitterEnd said:
What is interesting about this event is that our perception was that it had been dry for several days and that overnight it hadn't rained much, just a bit of drizzel. Just checked the CDG Vis Bot and the rain guage readings would seem to confirm that.

I think this is a fundamental problem with visbot - none of us live on top of the hills! I suspect that under the conditions prevailing at the weekend, the clouds gather around the tops and gently drop their load, whereas a couple of hundred metres lower it's dry.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
That's a very fair observation Langcliffe.

A couple of summers ago we did a comparison between rainfall down at habitation level and rainfall at Gaping Gill, over the 16 days of the August tackling and main winch meet. It was only a short period (determined by the length of time folk could actually collect data up there) and it certainly shouldn't be taken as representative of the whole 12 month cycle - but we found that the differences between low and high level readings were perhaps less than one might imagine. There were even times when more rain was collected lower down!


There's a short report about this in a CPC Record, if anyone did want to look it up. (Langcliffe, if your copy's to hand, maybe you could post the actual reference here? My collection is currently buried, after decorating.)
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
Pitlamp said:
There's a short report about this in a CPC Record, if anyone did want to look it up. (Langcliffe, if your copy's to hand, maybe you could post the actual reference here? My collection is currently buried, after decorating.)

Cordingley J. and Jones, P.  A few notes on rainfall at Gaping Gill and at valley level" , CPC Record 101, p.18

The readings were taken in August 2010. During that week, there was 77.5 mm at GG, 66.5 mm in Clapham, and 58.5 mm in Newby.

If you have finished decorating your place, can you start on mine?
 

TheBitterEnd

Well-known member
I wonder if there is any kind of funding available to produce some rain guages that could be left up on the fells for a year or so?
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
TheBitterEnd said:
I wonder if there is any kind of funding available to produce some rain guages that could be left up on the fells for a year or so?

If anyone has the time to take this one on properly - and it's certainly a worthwhile project - I think this is what the BCRA Cave Science & Technmology Research Initiative gives funding for. 

Langcliffe - thanks for posting that reference. No chance of decorating your house for you; it'll take me a decade to get over the trauma of what little bit I've done to my kennel!
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
TheBitterEnd said:
If there is genuine interest I'd be up for putting together a proto-type/proof of concept.

Go for it!

If it would help you I'll photocopy that short article from the CPC Record; I could leave it somewhere in the Dales for you to pick up (maybe somewhere in Ingleton) or I can give it to someone I know who goes on KCC meets to pass on to you. Send me a PM if you want this. (I can also suggest who to have a chat with in BCRA about requesting some funding. Mind you, I think the basic info is available on the BCRA website.)

Another way of tackling this might be to identify an existing gauge high up and see if their data can be supplied. It's easier then just to set up a low level rain gauge to compare with these high level data. One obvious candidate might be Malham Tarn Field Centre, which is (from memory) above 400 m and has kept rainfall data for donkeys years. I know one or two people in Malham village who might be willing to have a gauge and read it daily, for comparison. (Don't ask me to do any number crunching though; it's not my thing!)

Anyway, send a PM if you'd like to pick up this ball and run with it.
 

TheBitterEnd

Well-known member
Thought I'd keep this on the forum (rather than PM) for now because I'd be interested in input from others. My first thoughts are that to investigate Langcliffe's suggestion it would be much better to have 3-5 high level gauges on different sides of a hill. Do these need matching lower level gauges? I'm not sure.

My interest is in putting together the technology, obviously it would need land owners permission etc. to deploy it and ideally some people on the ground to keep an eye on the gauges from time to time.

I'd be happy to put a prototype together but given that a weather-proofed, solar powered version is likely to come in at over ?200 it's going to need funding. I had a look at the BCRA web-page and it's not immediately obvious that this would fall into their objectives. Besides which their application form wants dates, project supervisor, referees, etc. and whilst that is not unreasonable it's not a set of hoops through which I want to jump on my own.

 

graham

New member
The technology exists, as evidenced by all the amateur weather stations that are found online.

What you want to do is to persuade a few hill farmers to install them & hook them up to the 'net.

I'm sure someone with the gift of the gab will be able to persuade them of how useful localised weather forecasts can be to them.
 
A quick trawl on eBay shows plenty of rain gauges which transmit "wireless" data,  many for ?30 -  ?60. The transmission range seems to be 30m - 100m max, often with the datalogger not weatherproof.

Presumably that would not be good enough for the high level locations (even with a simple weatherproof container for the electronics) because that would involve regular visits to interrogate the logger. With local cooperation it may be fine for the low level ones.

BitterEnd, I assume your "weather-proofed, solar powered" reference is for the bit that transmits the data? I may be out of my depth with anything like that but I would be interested to hear your ideas.
 

Bob Smith

Member
[quote author=TheBitterEnd]I'd be happy to put a prototype together but given that a weather-proofed, solar powered version is likely to come in at over ?200 it's going to need funding. I had a look at the BCRA web-page and it's not immediately obvious that this would fall into their objectives. Besides which their application form wants dates, project supervisor, referees, etc. and whilst that is not unreasonable it's not a set of hoops through which I want to jump on my own.[/quote]

An entry level professional weather station comes in at around that price, and I would have thought that an Arduino based system with logging could be done for ?50 and some time. this would be well worth some thought and I too would be willing to throw some effort at it. Great idea TheBitterEnd

 

nickwilliams

Active member
TheBitterEnd said:
I had a look at the BCRA web-page and it's not immediately obvious that this would fall into their objectives. Besides which their application form wants dates, project supervisor, referees, etc. and whilst that is not unreasonable it's not a set of hoops through which I want to jump on my own.

The BCRA CSTRI application form is geared to fit in with an academic style funding process, but each application is based on its merits as a project which will give a useful insight into any aspect of speleology and it does not have to come from or be backed by a recognised academic institution. If you think the project will give results which provide new information likely to be of interested to cavers then it is worth making an application. I'm one of the assessment panel and I'd be happy to give you feedback on a draft application if you'd like to contact me via PM.

Nick.
 

TheBitterEnd

Well-known member
Bob Smith said:
An entry level professional weather station comes in at around that price, and I would have thought that an Arduino based system with logging could be done for ?50 and some time. this would be well worth some thought and I too would be willing to throw some effort at it. Great idea TheBitterEnd

I had something like ?50 in mind for weatherproofing alone - decent enclosure, glands, sealants, potting/conformal coating, etc, etc.

Making a tipping bucket, Arduino based rain gauge is not too much of an issue (http://www.instructables.com/id/Arduino-Weather-Station-Part3-Rain/#step1). Making one that can sit on a fell side for a few months is a bit more of a challenge.

What I had in mind was an Arduino with a real time clock, data logger and GSM modem (reports back say once per day, backed up by the data logger) and might as well chuck in a temp. sensor, powered by a solar charged battery arrangement.

So I got to around ?200. Yes you can buy these things but not at that spec.

Whilst it's fun to design and build these things getting them deployed and maintained is a bigger issue from my PoV.


 

kay

Active member
Natural England have a rain gauge at Colt park, at about 370m (or 40m lower than GG) - would it be worth asking if you could get access to their readings?
 
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