gear lost in whitepit

[dave_the_cave]

Hah hum

This should bring a smirk to you thinner mendip cavers.

I lost my gear bag with 10 or so maillons and hangers and several krabs a spanner and pliers in whitepit.

If anyone finds them and returns them I would be most grateful. Beers certainly.

We are trying to mount a rescue mission next week.

Tuesday evening 13th January 2009 we decided to visit the lower series in whitepit via the 60 foot pitch down the hole in the floor.
None of us had been to the lower series before and none of us had been down the rift.

It was more awkward than we expected. I was the last one out with the gear bag hanging from my belt and the rope bag hanging beneath my feet
as I prussiked up. I struggled to get the bag through the connection between the aven and the rift. When after suffering greatly in the pinch point of
the rift I finally reached the top I realised that my belay belt had come loose and the bag had detached.. it was not at the bottom of the rift (one of us had a look -
not me I was shattered) and so it must have fallen into the hole into the aven.

If anyone collects them I would be grateful?

But advice would be useful as well.

Next week we are hoping that the coffee pot route is easier. Anyone know? Is this the normal route to the lower series (the hole in the floor seems awful for
people in SRT and a larger build). Is the crawl/squeeze to coffee pot easy? Will co2 levels be worse in coffee pot than in the rift went down? There was no problem
we were out of breath for other reasons. We did climb up to the bottom of coffee pot.

link to my blog for the fuller story

link to susanne photos in more detail than I would wish! sorry

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Next week we are hoping that the coffee pot route is easier. Anyone know?

Yes, I do.  I used to find Coffee Pot pretty damn hard when I was younger, thinner and fitter.  It requires a really awkward move from the tight passage straight onto the pitch head and vice versa.  It's a very technically interesting bit of caving which is worth doing at least once.  I have not done it since the day the 'Forty Backs' was dug through.  Does that answer your question?

 

[shotlighter]

God, I must be getting senile. When I first looked at this thread & thought it said "gear lost in whippit" - NURSE!

 

[dave_the_cave]

okay Andy thanks

For me (who is not thin not particularly fit or young) I translate that into I need to do the rift again.
Not particularly good news though!

Dave

 

[Brains]

Just had a quick look at the pics, seems a very pretty hole in the ground.
That rift looks a good place for practicing the one footed srt technique  at least each mm gained is in the right direction. Was it the "croll in the chest" that caused so much nuisance? Keep at it 

 

[Elaine]

And me at 5'10" and 10 stone also struggled at the top of the coffee pot. It is the bend in the restricted space that tall people struggle with.

 

[cap n chris]

Is White Pit bolted or is it rigged from spits? Is it a technical rigging exercise? How many anchor points are there? - I'm guessing quite a few judging by the amount of kit which has gone AWOL.

Only been there once (ladder/line).

 

[dave_the_cave]

Chris

I did not repack the gear bag for the cave .. thats why so much was lost.

But I only used the rope on a natural for the hole in the floor pitch. The same natural is
used to provide a safety/traverse line down to the hole. There were two rub points
on the pitch because of the connecting hole between the rift itself and the aven.
one rub point above the connection and another below the connection. So it could be rigged
better. The rub point below we worried about but it was on a flat piece of rock. The more serious one
I only noticed on the way out after I came through the connection. This is rough. The rope (12mm edelreid) was unmarked
by the experience. I have been told it is easier with a ladder. There was a spit next to the boulder which would take a ladder.
The natural is perfectly placed for a lifeline.

If it can be rigged better for SRT I would like to know!

Initially was planning to wrap a sling around the boulder next to the hole and use this with the natural
for a y-hang. The idea was then to climb down to the ledge just down the rift and get under the boulder.
But the slings went awry. This could easily change the rub points. I doubt if it would avoid them. 

I am contemplating putting a petzl id at the top to give some assistance to people at the pinch point in the rift.
But this would put additional strain on the natural if used with a counter weight.

Dave

 

[dave_the_cave]

Just had a quick look at the pics, seems a very pretty hole in the ground.
That rift looks a good place for practicing the one footed srt technique  at least each mm gained is in the right direction. Was it the "croll in the chest" that caused so much nuisance? Keep at it 

Brains

I undoubtedly made this harder than it should be. But my hands got well scraped on this trip there is not much space for me.

On the descent of the rift at the pinch point .. I could not get my hand in to press the handle of the stop or it hurt a lot.
I pulled through some slack and slipped past the pinch point under gravity. There was more space to the side of the pinch point.

I messed up with the bag getting stuck in the connection. I could not pull it through when it was connected to me. I eventually
released it from me and let it fall back into the aven. This was a struggle in the space.

On the ascent it was one footed SRT, but the rope did not run through the chest harness and I hand to pull the rope through after
each attempt at a step.  At the pinch point I tried to use the extra space on the left on the way up. But as you step up you tend to
pull into the pinch point. Eventually I changed tack and used my other leg and got out easily.

Mental anguish rather than tiredness was the main problem. More practise needed..

 

[Stupot]

Let's just rewind alittle shall we.

White Pit is best done on ladders, it takes 20 minutes to hit the sump at the bottom & 4 ladders are needed.

1 for the entrance
1 for the "tight" pitch
2 for the final pitch (linked)

Can't remember what lengths.  Rigging the cave for SRT is just unnecessary, and I would advise against the Coffee pot route. (CO2).

I can get your metal work out next week if you decide not to go down.

Stu.

 

[Brains]

Dave, it may or may not be easier on ladders - I have never been there, but I dont like ladders much anyway.
As for abseiling in a tight spot... try using the stop on a cow tail rather than on the harness maillon so it is up away from your body. You may also wish to disable the autolock function by locking the cam open, or if really tight rig the stop in a "C" configuration, missing out the centre of the stop. This give NO auto lock and a much easier (= faster) ride, but be cautious! This also is useful for fat (12mm+) ropes that one run otherwise.

 

[dave_the_cave]

Thanks to whoever

We went down last night and recovered my gear .. the bag and a krab was in neat pile at the bottom of the pitch.
Even I could not miss it! The rift was quite easy this time -- an interesting problem to be solved rather than the epic it
seemed last time (sorry). Even so the trip was not without incident (but that is another story) and once again we missed the
pub (narrowly -- oh so narrowly this time).

I am fated in this cave -- I managed to leave a rope tape down the cave last night .. I cut it the night before (from one of my new ropes -- pain horror), so that I could wrap it around the boulder above the pitch (it was not long enough and was not used).  More litter in the cave I am afraid.

Dave

 

[Hels]

I think also dave_the_cave you forgot to mention the fact at your group also didn't lock the cave!!!! which is very unreliable of you due to the fact that one, it has fantastic formations about 20 metres into the cave and two, the fact that it is on a public footpath and three, the cave was left rigged so any tom, dick or harry could of easily climbed down the ladder found the formations and broken them or of got lost down there.

I personally think this is very unreliable.  Also don't try and use the excuse that the key was stuck, everyone knows that padlocks on caves are hard to lock and you can spend ten or so minutes trying to unlock or lock a cave.  I relocked the cave on the Saturday and it took a while but it was eventually done.  Due to you not locking the cave one caver (which will remain unnamed) had to go out at 00.30 at night and lock the cave for you in the fog and pouring rain because you couldn't be bothered to fiddle with the lock.  I personally think this is very selfish and you didn't think of you actions very well and whoever was leading the trip shouldn't have been. 

Also the fact that you just posted the key and padlock back into the belfry when there were vans outside and the light on and didn't knock on the door to tell someone so that the problem could be fixed is also very selfish so that you didn't have to deal with it yourselves.

Hels

 

[Aubrey]

Youve been told!

 

[graham]

I think also dave_the_cave you forgot to mention the fact at your group also didn't lock the cave!!!! which is very unreliable of you due to the fact that one, it has fantastic formations about 20 metres into the cave and two, the fact that it is on a public footpath and three, the cave was left rigged so any tom, dick or harry could of easily climbed down the ladder found the formations and broken them or of got lost down there.

I personally think this is very unreliable.  Also don't try and use the excuse that the key was stuck, everyone knows that padlocks on caves are hard to lock and you can spend ten or so minutes trying to unlock or lock a cave.  I relocked the cave on the Saturday and it took a while but it was eventually done.  Due to you not locking the cave one caver (which will remain unnamed) had to go out at 00.30 at night and lock the cave for you in the fog and pouring rain because you couldn't be bothered to fiddle with the lock.  I personally think this is very selfish and you didn't think of you actions very well and whoever was leading the trip shouldn't have been. 

Also the fact that you just posted the key and padlock back into the belfry when there were vans outside and the light on and didn't knock on the door to tell someone so that the problem could be fixed is also very selfish so that you didn't have to deal with it yourselves.

Hels

Consider yourself (un)lucky, Hels. At least you knew it was left unlocked.

 

[dave_the_cave]

Hels

I am most puzzled by your post because nothing we did on our trip was unreasonable in any way!

We did not lock the cave because we could not after trying for a reasonable length of time. We returned the key (and the lock) as instructed. I am sure Susanne would have notified Stuart ASAP about the cave being left unlocked.

Two weeks ago we were warned about known problems with the lock and suffered the predicted problems with the lock. We passed on our experiences. You yourself admit to having problems with the lock. The issue should be that it has not been fixed. It seems inevitable that some problems would
occur with this lock. The lock lies horizontal, and exposed to the elements. There is no oil provided.

I do not understand why someone should CHOOSE to return/replace the lock in the middle of the night.
But it was their decision.

Whilst sharing your concern for the formations: our actions did not significantly increase the
chances of damage being done to them. The cave entrance is NOT on a public footpath (it is several hundred yards from one) and is surrounded by barbed wire. So there is no danger to members of the public. Furthermore the visibility on the evening of the trip was so bad that we had problems both finding the cave and finding our way back.

Anyone who might wish to steal or damage  the formations would have an expectation that the lock was in place, and this was the reason I did not mention that the cave was not locked.

But the lock itself is totally inadequate as a means of preventing access - it could be forced with almost no effort.

I would conclude that the existing gate/lock both does not give adequate access (because it is prone to jamming), and does not give any significant protection to the formations (because it can easily be forced). It should be replaced ASAP with a better design which is not open to the elements or to interference.

It is possible to put gates/locks on caves that actually work -- on the mendip the caves controlled by the Charterhouse Caving Company, and many of the CSCC caves are much better. In Wales Ogof Agen Allwedd and Ogof Draenen are in a different league to the current whitepit lock. The Draenen gate/lock has to contend with as much mud as whitepit.

I think it is time to put your own house in order rather than ranting on about our clubs behaviour when we behaved totally reasonably.

Good trolling

Dave

 

[dave_the_cave]

Hels

I am most puzzled by your post because nothing we did on our trip was unreasonable in any way!

We did not lock the cave because we could not after trying for a reasonable length of time. We returned the key (and the lock) as instructed. I am sure Susanne would have notified Stuart ASAP about the cave being left unlocked.

Two weeks ago we were warned about known problems with the lock and suffered the predicted problems with the lock. We passed on our experiences. You yourself admit to having problems with the lock. The issue should be that it has not been fixed. It seems inevitable that some problems would
occur with this lock. The lock lies horizontal, and exposed to the elements. There is no oil provided.

I do not understand why someone should CHOOSE to return/replace the lock in the middle of the night.
But it was their decision.

Whilst sharing your concern for the formations: our actions did not significantly increase the
chances of damage being done to them. The cave entrance is NOT on a public footpath (it is several hundred yards from one) and is surrounded by barbed wire. So there is no danger to members of the public. Furthermore the visibility on the evening of the trip was so bad that we had problems both finding the cave and finding our way back. There was no chance that anyone would be out on the night of our trip.

Anyone who might wish to steal or damage  the formations would have an expectation that the lock was in place, and this was the reason I did not mention that the cave was not locked.

But the lock itself is totally inadequate as a means of preventing access - it could be forced with almost no effort.

I would conclude that the existing gate/lock both does not give adequate access (because it is prone to jamming), and does not give any significant protection to the formations (because it can easily be forced). It should be replaced ASAP with a better design which is not open to the elements or to interference.

It is possible to put gates/locks on caves that actually work -- on the mendip the caves controlled by the Charterhouse Caving Company, and many of the CSCC caves are much better. In Wales Ogof Agen Allwedd and Ogof Draenen are in a different league to the current whitepit lock. The Draenen gate/lock has to contend with as much mud as whitepit.

I think it is time to put your own house in order rather than ranting on about our clubs behaviour when we behaved totally reasonably.

Good trolling

Dave

 

[Peter Burgess]

Anyone who might wish to steal or damage  the formations would have an expectation that the lock was in place, and this was the reason I did not mention that the cave was not locked.

But the lock itself is totally inadequate as a means of preventing access - it could be forced with almost no effort.

For someone who says he does not mention that the cave is left unlocked in case some scally goes in to nick formations, it then seems very odd that you announce to everyone who cares to read it that the lock is crap and can easily be broken off. Thanks very much - that's very useful information. Now where did I put my EBAY account details?

 

[Sewer Rat]

If I borrow my friends key to his house and for some reason I cant lock the door again. do I:

1.  walk away and hope nobody notices and tell him in a day or so.
2.  ring him to see if I'm missing something or just having a moment.
3.  Keep at it, (i managed to open it so it will lock again)
4.  drop by his work and drop in the key " by the way mate the door is wide open" I'm off see ya.

Smooth cave locks are a rare thing. Did you expect to see a little can of oil next to the lock?
Ive never see one, but then again I'm not that observant, I might have missed it.
My party have struggled with the draenan lock on occasions, determination and the thought of an aborted trip do wonders for locks.
Would you have given up as soon if you were on your way in?
Slating the organisations that provide protection to the caves is very constructive.
"I would conclude that the existing gate/lock both does not give adequate access (because it is prone to jamming), and does not give any significant protection to the formations (because it can easily be forced). " Are you saying here that on occasion you have forced the gate open? its not the kind of thing you broadcast eh?

 

 

[Stupot]

Dave,

1). It was me who had to re lock the cave at 00:30, as a leader such as yourself I felt it my duty to secure the cave to protect the formations and the public - Don't you think so ? - Funny how the lock opened first time & again this evening, you just have to TRY.

2). White Pit is 20m, not 700 yards from the West Mendip Way (a very popular footpath). And there is a stile into the Copse where I have seen members of the public on several occasions.

4). White Pit is currently pre rigged for digging and "open access" would be unthinkable as from the entrance a 10m ladder leads straight in and onto the formations, so if someone had got it and damaged them, who would you blame ?

3). I am tired of your groups incompetence - So I am contemplating whether or not to release the key to you again.

End of subject

Stu.