giants water levels.

[chrisporcheret]

Has anyone been down giants over these last few days? Weve had a bit of settled weather so might do a trip Saturday ( weather depending of course)

How fast does the water level drop in there? 

Chris

 

[al]

Hi Chris, It should be OK at the moment. Giants reacts very quickly to heavy rain over the Rushop bowl, and I've seen Garlands where the whole pitch head has been obscured by knee-deep white water shooting out as far as the opposite wall - but, being a swallet, it goes down very quickly too when the rain eases off.

If it is really wet, Garlands is the most serious problem because it is easy to rig it for the conditions on your way down, only to find that it's turned into Niagara Falls when you try to get out!

Recent weather has, as you say, been quite dry so you'll probably be OK, but, if you have any doubts, you still have a few options without going as far as Garlands - Upper West, Upper East, the Wet Inlets and Boss Aven are all worth a visit.

 

[bograt]

Just be wary if rain is forecast, the ground is still saturated so run off and consequent rise in levels will be VERY quick.

 

[pwhole]

I can definitely recommend the higher-level stuff above Basecamp Chamber and Boss Aven - very pretty and interesting too. There's even a vein with galena in it up there. Fascinating stuff. Dunno if the rope for climbing up there ever got replaced though...it was a bit worn through at the top where it was rigged to a bit of natural, as I remember.

 

[al]

Yes - I replaced that rope last year, together with the maillons, which are now stainless.

I think it would great if the spit traverse that goes out to the passage leading to the top of the main aven were bolted properly. It's very spectacular along there, but those spits are not very good nowadays.

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

I think it would great if the spit traverse that goes out to the passage leading to the top of the main aven were bolted properly. It's very spectacular along there, but those spits are not very good nowadays.

Yes, and a nice pair of bolts for a pull-through at the end would be good.

 

[pwhole]

Of course you did - sorry, I'd forgotten you'd gone ahead and done it.

Well...if I'm not working, I'd be happy to help fix that traverse sometime - got a bit of spare stainless. I don't remember any spits at all, to be honest. Seem to remember just jamming the gap. Probably not a good idea...

 

[martinm]

I think it would great if the spit traverse that goes out to the passage leading to the top of the main aven were bolted properly. It's very spectacular along there, but those spits are not very good nowadays.

Yes, and a nice pair of bolts for a pull-through at the end would be good.

why not ask DCA to do it for you? I'm sure they would oblige and maybe fit one of those big rings for a pullthrough like on the pitch back down to the crabwalk further into the cave....

 

[bograt]

I think it would great if the spit traverse that goes out to the passage leading to the top of the main aven were bolted properly. It's very spectacular along there, but those spits are not very good nowadays.

Yes, and a nice pair of bolts for a pull-through at the end would be good.

why not ask DCA to do it for you? I'm sure they would oblige and maybe fit one of those big rings for a pullthrough like on the pitch back down to the crabwalk further into the cave....

I think there might be a bit of debate on this one, I always considered it a training trip and so would better come under the remit of PICA, whenever I took novices round there we used natural belays. Having said that, it might be a useful training ground for bolting learners.

Don't underestimate the power of the stream up there, I recall a VERY close trip when a novices wellies got washed off, they where found a few weeks later in East Canal. (That was  frozen surface causing rapid runoff plus meltwater), I was overruled on the wisdom of the trip by a "professional".

 

[Pete K]

DCA make the call on bolts, PICA could aid in an application for them but has no remit for bolting directly. The 2 organisations do work well together though so someone will be able to help.
I'm not sure that it would get bolted. I have been turned down on the traverse section in the Crab Walk between Garlands and Chert Hall. It's viewed as just an instructors route so was not considered important. I disagree as I've placed spits there and some of them need replacing already. I'd like to avoid a braille trail. Perhaps the idea of bolting these routes should be revisited before the application of more short term spit anchors becomes the only option.

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

I think it would great if the spit traverse that goes out to the passage leading to the top of the main aven were bolted properly. It's very spectacular along there, but those spits are not very good nowadays.

Yes, and a nice pair of bolts for a pull-through at the end would be good.

why not ask DCA to do it for you? I'm sure they would oblige and maybe fit one of those big rings for a pullthrough like on the pitch back down to the crabwalk further into the cave....

I think there might be a bit of debate on this one, I always considered it a training trip and so would better come under the remit of PICA, whenever I took novices round there we used natural belays. Having said that, it might be a useful training ground for bolting learners.

Don't underestimate the power of the stream up there, I recall a VERY close trip when a novices wellies got washed off, they where found a few weeks later in East Canal. (That was  frozen surface causing rapid runoff plus meltwater), I was overruled on the wisdom of the trip by a "professional".

Are you sure you are talking about the same place as the rest of us???

 

[Mattthornton1989]

Hi Chris,
I was down giants on Tuesday. But only went to the first pitch with a group. Was hardly any water to there. 
Have a good trip.
Matt

 

[martinm]

DCA make the call on bolts, PICA could aid in an application for them but has no remit for bolting directly. The 2 organisations do work well together though so someone will be able to help.
I'm not sure that it would get bolted. I have been turned down on the traverse section in the Crab Walk between Garlands and Chert Hall. It's viewed as just an instructors route so was not considered important. I disagree as I've placed spits there and some of them need replacing already. I'd like to avoid a braille trail. Perhaps the idea of bolting these routes should be revisited before the application of more short term spit anchors becomes the only option.

Pete, things may have changed in recent years.    I  did the standard 'round trip' a few years ago, but have never done the high-level stuff b4 Garlands but would love to. If you can send me route topos for the areas you all think need bolting, then  I will put them in front of the relevant DCA peeps and if we can get something done, we will do, I'm sure. Just needs  approved  installers to come onboard  to do the work.

After all we've just done Cliff Cavern  and  the upstream pitches in Winnat's Head Cave so who knows?

Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer.

 

[JB]

I think it would great if the spit traverse that goes out to the passage leading to the top of the main aven were bolted properly. It's very spectacular along there, but those spits are not very good nowadays.

Hey Al, let's have a chat about this. I'll drop you an email later today.

Jules.

 

[JB]

DCA make the call on bolts, PICA could aid in an application for them but has no remit for bolting directly. The 2 organisations do work well together though so someone will be able to help.
I'm not sure that it would get bolted. I have been turned down on the traverse section in the Crab Walk between Garlands and Chert Hall. It's viewed as just an instructors route so was not considered important. I disagree as I've placed spits there and some of them need replacing already. I'd like to avoid a braille trail. Perhaps the idea of bolting these routes should be revisited before the application of more short term spit anchors becomes the only option.

Hey Pete,

Hope you're well and have had a good winter caving so far!

I should make the point that I'm not the DCA equipment officer anymore so not speaking on behalf of DCA but as an anchor installer. I would personally not want to see the route above the Crabwalk from Garlands to Chert Hall bolted with permanent anchors. The ethos of the anchor installers in Derbyshire is that we're not making caving easier - we're making it safer. I know this can be interpreted in different ways but for me placing anchors along that route falls the wrong side of the line. As you know the route that you describe isn't necessary as you can just walk along in the bottom of the Crabwalk and climb up wherever and handy cavers will have no problems traversing in the roof without a rope.

I guess since it's been mentioned DCA request that people don't place anchors in Derbyshire/Peak District caves these days but request anchors through the DCA Equipment Officer. I appreciate that saying I wouldn't support anchors along here and asking people not to install anchors themselves seems like having cake and eating it. However, drilling 16mm holes and gluing in these places needs a good reason - does change the nature of the cave.

Having said that, if DCA decided properly they should be installed, they'd get done.

Last thing I'm after is picking an arguent matey - I know you've done great work on behalf of Derbyshire cavers over the last years - but wanted to put my point of view.

Cheers,

Jules.

 

[Rob]

...Are you sure you are talking about the same place as the rest of us???

No, I'm pretty sure there's a mixture of locations being talked about here... 

 

[al]

To the OP, you see what happens when you ask about water levels???

Hope you can find your answer in there somewhere!!

 

[Pete K]

Hi Jules, I'm well thanks.
Totally see where you are coming from. However, the traverse does get used and the spits are wearing out. I'd not want to see even more spits appear and then again in another 5 or so years. A balance needs to be maintained between spreading amateur placements and permanent anchors keeping the cave environment in mind.

Mel, I have a topo for that section I'll dig out and scan.

Sorry for the hijack OP!

 

[pwhole]

No, I'm pretty sure there's a mixture of locations being talked about here... 

Yeah, I'm still jammed in the roof above Boss Aven...

 

[EwanCameron]

Jules - it's seen as only used for caving instructors so not important

Very one sided way of seeing things

How do most young people try caving for the first time

A) Family member takes them

B) Caving club or organisation

C) Paid cave leader

I must have taken close to 2000 young people caving last year for the first time with out young people getting into caving most people that comment on here would have very little to comment on as the sport would be struggling to fund its self