Grivel A&D Ascender / Descender?

[JAshley73]

I recently attended a vertical caving class, and am now putting together a shopping list for gear.

One interesting item that stuck out was the Grivel A&D Ascender / Descender. I did a quick search for these, but nothing jumped out. It looks like an interesting alternative to the Petzl Ascension. (Which we used in class.)

While I doubt the Grivel A&D was designed for vertical rappelling into a cave, I could see it being useful for descending a sloped pitch, where you're walking, but want a rope for extra control. Seems like it would be useful when you want some descending control, but not as much friction as a bobbin or rack would provide.

We do have a retailer here in the USA for these. Price is about 20% less than a Petzl Ascension. (A couple other alternative items for the same price as well.) While I don't believe in skimping on cost for life-critical equipment, the savings would be handy as I outfit myself, and my wife both, with a full climbing/descending setup, at the same time...

Does anyone here have experience with these? Any reason to avoid them? Or a fine alternative as a regular ascender, and the light-duty descender is a nice bonus?

Thanks

A&D

Revolutionary ascender that can also be used for rappelling. Classic ascender, that through the introduction of the plate on the body can also be used for rappelling. This solves one of the problems that often arise in the use of ascenders, which have always been designed and functional to climb...

grivel.com

 

[paul]

Probably fine for ascending, although I prefer a non-handled jammer for that. But the descending mode looks like and old fashioned karabiner brake and I tried that once years ago, and once was enough! I would stick to a dedicated tool for ascending and another for descending.

 

[snebbit]

I really wanted to like these, but got a chance to try it out and personally didn't get along with it (in descent mode, anyway). Great to have an emergency spare abbing device built in like you say, but for everyday caving it was just too awkward to get the pitch head manoeuvering smooth, and even on slow rope I found myself slipping down-rope while trying to take my cowstails off etc, and ended up getting a bit hung up. After trying it I felt that if I knew I was on a trip with any abseiling at all I'd rather just have a regular descender with me.

However, like you say it's cheaper than a vanilla Petzl ascender so why not As far as I'm aware Grivel are a mature and well respected brand.

 

[ChrisB]

Just looking at the photo, any grit on the rope will wear the heads off the rivets holding the friction plate in position, so I guess it's designed for abseiling on clean rope only.

 

[Fulk]

Like paul I've tried a karabiner brake (ages ago) and didn't like it. Also, if you were descending on that thing and you needed to change to ascending, how would you go about it?

 

[JAshley73]

I should add that I'm not planning on this being my rappelling device. I'll use a J-frame rack for that. (Probably too many large, stiff ropes here to go straight to a Bobbin as my only rappel device.)

It would be used 99-100% of the time as a descender. I just thought the "descending" feature might be useful on steeper downhill "walks" for a little added control. It certainly wasn't a feature that I was shopping for, but it looks like the option might be nice.

 

[JAshley73]

Also, if you were descending on that thing and you needed to change to ascending, how would you go about it?

?? Wrap the rope around the handle, over the carabiner, give it a few wraps, then wrap & tie above the rope for a soft lock-off? Then flip the ascending cam onto the rope?

Wouldn't that do it?

 

[Fjell]

You are hanging on a small pop rivet. The same krab with an Italian hitch would be considerably more confidence inspiring for me in terms of strength and controllability. It does seem like a solution looking for a problem.

 

[topcat]

What a stunningly cheap idea. What was Grivel thinking? Oh, it wasn't .......

 

[paul]

?? Wrap the rope around the handle, over the carabiner, give it a few wraps, then wrap & tie above the rope for a soft lock-off? Then flip the ascending cam onto the rope?

Wouldn't that do it?

Not if you had run out of rope and needed to do a changeover to ascent...

 

[JAshley73]

You are hanging on a small pop rivet. The same krab with an Italian hitch would be considerably more confidence inspiring for me in terms of strength and controllability. It does seem like a solution looking for a problem.

Well, as shown, if the rope were pulled taught, then the rope puts the carabiner, the rappel slot, and the frame all in compression - forcing it all together.

And if you indeed have the rope threaded through the top of the frame, then I don't see a way to put thread the rope "wrong" so as to try and put everything in tension.

Honestly, it all looks pretty elegant. If the rivets break, the rope holds everything together while in a descending configuration.

 

[JAshley73]

Not if you had run out of rope and needed to do a changeover to ascent...

So the knot in the end of your rope has jammed into the rappel slot? You would simply flick the cam over, engaging the rope...

Right?

 

[Fulk]

If you're using the Frog system, you could flip the cam into the closed position, stand up in your footloop, and – What? Where would you put your chest jammer? If you installed it below the foot jammer (in the normal style), then with your weight on the rope I doubt that you'd be able to remove the braking karabiner.

 

[JAshley73]

Well, again, I wouldn't be using this in place of a REAL rappelling device. I would still use a J-frame rack for true rappelling.

I could see this being useful for walking down steeper slopes, that would normally be done without assistance. Having a rope and one of these would offer some added control, vs. nothing at all. Using a J-frame rack or bobbin would likely produce too much friction in these scenarios, and thus, be avoided altogether?

Let me be clear that my plan is not to use these in place of a real rappelling device. However, as a regular ascender, there would be nothing wrong with them, correct?

 

[Fjell]

Well, again, I wouldn't be using this in place of a REAL rappelling device. I would still use a J-frame rack for true rappelling.

I could see this being useful for walking down steeper slopes, that would normally be done without assistance. Having a rope and one of these would offer some added control, vs. nothing at all. Using a J-frame rack or bobbin would likely produce too much friction in these scenarios, and thus, be avoided altogether?

Let me be clear that my plan is not to use these in place of a real rappelling device. However, as a regular ascender, there would be nothing wrong with them, correct?

There are several out there. Can you get the Climbing Technology ones? They have chromed cams like the old Petzl design.

 

[georgenorth]

I could see this being useful for walking down steeper slopes, that would normally be done without assistance. Having a rope and one of these would offer some added control, vs. nothing at all. Using a J-frame rack or bobbin would likely produce too much friction in these scenarios, and thus, be avoided altogether?

Classic abseil is a really useful technique for getting down this kind of slope. It’s worth practicing somewhere safe on the surface first though!

 

[JAshley73]

There are several out there. Can you get the Climbing Technology ones? They have chromed cams like the old Petzl design.

Yes, we have plenty of Climbing Technology, Camp USA, and Petzl.

Honestly, the Climbing Tech. stuff looks like it would be just as nice, maybe nicer on a couple features than the Petzl ascenders in a few cases. These Grivel A&D's look interesting though.

I may have a chance to try them soon, if we're able to visit a retailer in-store, this upcoming holiday.

 

[aricooperdavis]

However, as a regular ascender, there would be nothing wrong with them, correct?

I can't speak for them personally, but it looks like a good handled hand ascender. Personally I don't find the handle all that useful any more, but each to their own.

 

[JAshley73]

I ended up buying a full kit (x2) of climbing gear for myself and the Mrs a couple weeks ago. Went to a retailer, and tried on harnesses, etc...

I bought one of the Grivel A&D descenders to try, and will use it as my backup/quick-attach-safety ascender. My main foot-ascender will be a Petzl ascension.

A couple notes - It's very robust comparing to a Petzl Ascension. I haven't measured with a micrometer, but the frame feels thicker, and it is certainly heavier than a Petzl Ascension. I feel like the large open-hole handle for the cam release is a little easier to reach and open. My wife, with smaller hands disagrees.

I think it will be a solid ascender. I'll play around with the "rappel" feature, to see if it helps walking down sloped pitches. If not, it certainly doesn't seem to fall short in other ways. I see no reason for it wouldn't work as equally well as the Petzl Asension, or any other ascender.

 

[JAshley73]

I wanted to come back to this thread, after finally getting a chance to try the Grivel A&D descender in rappel mode... It requires several extra carabiners, and quite a bit of effort, but if one needed a backup rappel device, the A&D could work.

I clipped the A&D onto my harness D-ring via a locking carabiner. Changing over actually wasn't a big deal. Clip the ascender onto the rope, stand up in your foot loops, and open your croll. Thread the rope into the rappel slot, then into the braking carabiner. Stand up in your foot loop, and open the cam.

The A&D itself has no way to mechanically "lock" the cam in the open position. In my initial trials, a slight bump would re-engage the cam onto the rope. Not the end of the world - grab your climbing ascender & footloops, stand up, then disengage the cam again. (It's probably best that there's no additional mechanical lock for the cam. It would probably hinder the "normal" operation of the ascender - not wanted for regular climbing duties.)

I found that by simply hanging a carabiner over the cam's handle, the cam can't be closed. So this makes a half-ass mechanical "lock open" and prevents minor bumps from closing the cam.



Using the A&D in caving-rappel mode takes some effort. I was doing this on Cancord 10mm "Greenline" which is a very slick, 1% stretch, polyester rope. The A&D is fast, and requires you to be paying attention to stay in control... The two ways that I tried, were (1) holding the brake strand up, and against the tensioned strand, both in the right hand, and controlling friction via gripping force. (2) was adding an additional carabiner at the top of the ascender, and then running the brake strand up and then through this additional carabiner, then back down towards your right hip. This way was only slightly easier to control, but would be preferred for longer drops.

As I mentioned previously, the A&D is in no way meant to replace a real descending device. But, it's nice to know that it CAN be called upon, and HOW to make it work. Not to mention, it's more robust, and in my opinion, easier to operate in normal climbing functions than a Petzl Ascension, and costs less. So it's hard to go wrong.

See pictures below...





A&D in "rappel mode 1." Outside of frame, is my right hand, holding both the brake strand, and the tensioned strand to control friction. (Notice the loose carabiner on the left, preventing the cam from being closed.)

A&D in "rappel mode 2" - Using an additional carabiner at the top of the ascender, and running the brake strand down through it... (Notice the loose carabiner on the left, preventing the cam from being closed.)