A_Northerner
Active member
pwhole said:
November's coming up soon Phil
Hidden Earth try dive pool sessions
- Thread starter DaveR
- Start date
November's coming up soon Phil
2xw
Active member
pwhole said:
The dividing line is probably that calendar models consent to being leered at, relatively simple
Besides which hypocrisy doesn't negate a point, and I've always been particularly uncomfortable about naked calendars (although the charity money leaves me in two minds)
The difference is in OP - solicitation asking only for sexy women by a (presumably) male. Zero checks and balances as to where images of said dive would end up. Power is with anyone who be there and high chance for missuse not consented to.
In calendars and the like - concented photos agreed for release by models in advance in which they have full control over image released and hopefully, how. Power is with the concenting person.
There is a difference in flavour totally.
(Hope this is on topic enough to not get me banned lol)
In calendars and the like - concented photos agreed for release by models in advance in which they have full control over image released and hopefully, how. Power is with the concenting person.
There is a difference in flavour totally.
(Hope this is on topic enough to not get me banned lol)
nobrotson
Active member
Pitlamp said:Pitlamp said:
Whilst you're online 2xw, any chance of replying to my post? I'm still wondering if I've inadvertently said something wrong.
I think what Will and Tommy are saying is that no one was questioning the ability of CDG female divers, but that the attitude adopted by Daves original post was not a particularly affirming one for aspirant female divers, and that just because a few are keen and excited enough about cave diving to continue with their hobby regardless that doesn't mean that all potential female divers will be, which would be detrimental to the appeal of the activityto this group of people.
Tommy
Active member
New thread created so this one can remain on topic. If an admin could fork relevant comments that would be ace, but no worries .
We understand that it was a joke, and that it was not intended to offend, upset, or otherwise make people feel uncomfortable.
But you must see that it is a completely necessary thing to say?
A statement like that, while perhaps humorous to some people, clearly has the potential to cause upset with others.
Cave divers are a subset of a subset, and if interest is trying to be raised in the pastime, then common sense would dictate presenting the hobby as being as welcoming and non-judgmental as possible. An open try-dive is a great way to do this and it's good to hear that people took advantage.
But why tack on a statement like that?
Inclusions and equal opportunities are important considerations for official groups (and individuals) that requires awareness and management.
If student members of our club committee made a similar post on our club Facebook group, they'd could be reported to the students union and questions would be raised, it would at the very least be the point of discussion at a committee meeting. If a non-student (graduate/working etc.) member of the club or committee did the same, the university would rightly have to consider its position on allowing non-students to be welcome within the club, as they have a duty of care to their students above all others.
We've seen in the 'How many uni clubs left' thread how fickle support can be from unions, and how easily members are lost, turned away, or simply to gained by some clubs.
My point is, seemingly harmless statements can have deleterious effects on groups and the individuals within them.
Those of us who've pointed it out here have this awareness. "Youth of today", "Special snowflakes" comments welcomed, but we all know there is a huge demographic problem in caving, and being as up to date on all that 'political correctness gone mad' stuff clearly has benefits.
With regards to the comment on Radio 4's Thought for the Day. It is a piece meant to promote thought, discussion, and critical thinking, not to tell people how to think. In my opinion, there is a grey area, it works both ways depending upon the situation. If somebody who made a statement that caused upset without realising, subsequently has it pointed out to them, and manages to apologies, "hey guys yeah sorry that was a creepy way to phrase that, sorry, I didn't mean it that way.", others may be able to appreciate that people are human and let it go then great.
Everyone mucks up.
I haven't covered everything, but that's my morning coffee break over with.
T
.We understand that it was a joke, and that it was not intended to offend, upset, or otherwise make people feel uncomfortable.
But you must see that it is a completely necessary thing to say?
A statement like that, while perhaps humorous to some people, clearly has the potential to cause upset with others.
Cave divers are a subset of a subset, and if interest is trying to be raised in the pastime, then common sense would dictate presenting the hobby as being as welcoming and non-judgmental as possible. An open try-dive is a great way to do this and it's good to hear that people took advantage
.But why tack on a statement like that?
Inclusions and equal opportunities are important considerations for official groups (and individuals) that requires awareness and management.
If student members of our club committee made a similar post on our club Facebook group, they'd could be reported to the students union and questions would be raised, it would at the very least be the point of discussion at a committee meeting. If a non-student (graduate/working etc.) member of the club or committee did the same, the university would rightly have to consider its position on allowing non-students to be welcome within the club, as they have a duty of care to their students above all others.
We've seen in the 'How many uni clubs left' thread how fickle support can be from unions, and how easily members are lost, turned away, or simply to gained by some clubs.
My point is, seemingly harmless statements can have deleterious effects on groups and the individuals within them.
Those of us who've pointed it out here have this awareness. "Youth of today", "Special snowflakes" comments welcomed, but we all know there is a huge demographic problem in caving, and being as up to date on all that 'political correctness gone mad' stuff clearly has benefits.
With regards to the comment on Radio 4's Thought for the Day. It is a piece meant to promote thought, discussion, and critical thinking, not to tell people how to think. In my opinion, there is a grey area, it works both ways depending upon the situation. If somebody who made a statement that caused upset without realising, subsequently has it pointed out to them, and manages to apologies, "hey guys yeah sorry that was a creepy way to phrase that, sorry, I didn't mean it that way.", others may be able to appreciate that people are human and let it go then great.
Everyone mucks up.
I haven't covered everything, but that's my morning coffee break over with.
T
Of course, everyone reads through their scribblings before posting & considers the effect it may have on their intention (I can surmise you meant unnecessary):
Pitlamp - under his profile picture, 2xw has the tagline - Wills Adventures in New Karst (giving his name in a long-standing juvenile joke) - I think you were just caught in the crossfire, as you appear to be responding to the question, not supporting the original statement.
A lot of people are cavers precisely because they don't have to stick to the "norms of society" & cave diving requires a particular sort of resilience to deal with whatever the activity can throw at you (don't get me wrong I agree the original in-joke is best lost in the sands of time, but the approach taken to deal with it is just going to get people's backs up).
Mike
Topimo said:
Pitlamp - under his profile picture, 2xw has the tagline - Wills Adventures in New Karst (giving his name in a long-standing juvenile joke) - I think you were just caught in the crossfire, as you appear to be responding to the question, not supporting the original statement.
A lot of people are cavers precisely because they don't have to stick to the "norms of society" & cave diving requires a particular sort of resilience to deal with whatever the activity can throw at you (don't get me wrong I agree the original in-joke is best lost in the sands of time, but the approach taken to deal with it is just going to get people's backs up).
Mike
Tommy
Active member
Yes Mike good spot,
Of the 30 or so long messages and emails I've sent today I'm sure I've made other spelling errors too, sometimes as essential as that one.
Spelling mistakes affecting the intended meaning of a sentence is a different to the whole sentence having a particular meaning.
"The young woman swallowed the spider to hatch the fly." - Huh?
"The young woman looks better in her swimming costume, am I right guys?" - Hmm.
And now that we're on to spelling, I'd say it's a wrap...
Anyone who did the try-dive, how was it?
Of the 30 or so long messages and emails I've sent today I'm sure I've made other spelling errors too, sometimes as essential as that one.
Spelling mistakes affecting the intended meaning of a sentence is a different to the whole sentence having a particular meaning.
"The young woman swallowed the spider to hatch the fly." - Huh?
"The young woman looks better in her swimming costume, am I right guys?" - Hmm.
And now that we're on to spelling, I'd say it's a wrap...
Anyone who did the try-dive, how was it?
darren
Member
All these posts and so few from ladies (this is a guess based on user names).
Always interesting when people get upset on the behalf of others. Especially when the others don't see that bothered.
Is it sexist to think ladies are incapable of voicing there own views and we men have to do it for them?
Always interesting when people get upset on the behalf of others. Especially when the others don't see that bothered.
Is it sexist to think ladies are incapable of voicing there own views and we men have to do it for them?
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
How this thread should have gone:
OP: joke/casual sexism.
Others: hmm.
OP: oops.
Others: ok.
How it went:
OP: joke/casual sexism.
Others: hmm.
OP: Where's my spade...
etc.
OP: joke/casual sexism.
Others: hmm.
OP: oops.
Others: ok.
How it went:
OP: joke/casual sexism.
Others: hmm.
OP: Where's my spade...
etc.
In addition, it is fine for males to find issue with such sexist statements. Its not that women cant speak up (we are...) but we have a weaker voice that is often laughed off and or by sheer numbers lacking in the cave world have fewer voices to start with. Also, men can note issues they see and voice when there are issues that they have likely witnesses the issuss such can cause for their female friends.
In my experience women learn fast to let such comments roll off without sticking to ge point it doesnt even process as perhaps inately junivile and wrong. We do want to be "one of the boys" and included and this often leads to a warped perspective.
Its a complex issue to be sure. Ill go post in the new thread i see made later and included some expanded theoughts. I just wanted to address the falacy of "well only women should have issue with sexism" and the numbers falacy as well.
In my experience women learn fast to let such comments roll off without sticking to ge point it doesnt even process as perhaps inately junivile and wrong. We do want to be "one of the boys" and included and this often leads to a warped perspective.
Its a complex issue to be sure. Ill go post in the new thread i see made later and included some expanded theoughts. I just wanted to address the falacy of "well only women should have issue with sexism" and the numbers falacy as well.
Joel Corrigan
New member
If I ever need to remind myself why I got fed up of forums then this over-reaction to a typical light-hearted/smutty comment will be perfect reference material for me in the future. I for one have very little time for the nanny-state that would smother us under a hairy blanket of political correctness so as far as I'm concerned Dave is my hero of the week for having to put up with this drivel. The guy put time, effort & a wealth of hard-earned experience into volunteering his services to help others & yet the focus is on a cheeky comment? I bet you people wrote to Points of View whenever Benny Hill eyeballed cleavage... Times change but caving was, is & always will be an activity that requires a sense of humour in order to survive & anyone who takes themselves too seriously just tends to get knocked down by their peers. Put this into perspective & get over it, folks.
christine
Active member
+1.
I'm often more insulted by the feminist folk (male and female) who feel the need to try and 'represent' me.
Just **ck off will you.
I've been cave diving for 12 years, had zero issues joining the CDG (elected in first meeting) and have trained several male and female cave divers since. I have the end of the line in 5 underwater caves, 4 of those trips were all organised by me.
I certainly don't need feminist idiots whinging to try and 'fight our cause'. It's very degrading.
Caving and cave diving is the best leveller. Either you can do it or you can't. Your sex makes not a jot of difference. It's one of the very few non sexist sports where everyone can get on and do it regardless of gender.
The biggest barrier I ever found to women cave divers is that most women I come across simply don't fancy it.
"Oooh you're mad, I couldn't do that.....far too scary..." Tired of hearing it from them.
Most male divers I meet often fancy having a go. It's just the way humans are made up.
So, just shut up and get on with it. Plenty of women do - under the radar quite often - and I made reference to this in my talk at HE. Women are often underrepresented in cave diving but that does not mean they are not out there, doing the business.
The people that matter know about it.
BTW, the OP is a thoroughly nice bloke and was wholly supportive of me when I was a trainee cave diver in the CDG. He never 'letched' and he treated me just the same as any other diver.
He also has a cracking, naughty sense of humour. Unlike the posters which followed the OP.
I know who I'd rather get in the water with - and it ain't them!
I'm often more insulted by the feminist folk (male and female) who feel the need to try and 'represent' me.
Just **ck off will you.
I've been cave diving for 12 years, had zero issues joining the CDG (elected in first meeting) and have trained several male and female cave divers since. I have the end of the line in 5 underwater caves, 4 of those trips were all organised by me.
I certainly don't need feminist idiots whinging to try and 'fight our cause'. It's very degrading.
Caving and cave diving is the best leveller. Either you can do it or you can't. Your sex makes not a jot of difference. It's one of the very few non sexist sports where everyone can get on and do it regardless of gender.
The biggest barrier I ever found to women cave divers is that most women I come across simply don't fancy it.
"Oooh you're mad, I couldn't do that.....far too scary..." Tired of hearing it from them.
Most male divers I meet often fancy having a go. It's just the way humans are made up.
So, just shut up and get on with it. Plenty of women do - under the radar quite often - and I made reference to this in my talk at HE. Women are often underrepresented in cave diving but that does not mean they are not out there, doing the business.
The people that matter know about it.
BTW, the OP is a thoroughly nice bloke and was wholly supportive of me when I was a trainee cave diver in the CDG. He never 'letched' and he treated me just the same as any other diver.
He also has a cracking, naughty sense of humour. Unlike the posters which followed the OP.
I know who I'd rather get in the water with - and it ain't them!
