How do BCAs problems impact cavers, caving, and caves?
- Thread starter Kenilworth
- Start date
droid
Active member
Kenilworth said:
Clearcutting was a feature of British agriculture....in the Neolithic and Bronze Ages.
You can leave a pitheap and have *climax* vegetation inside 50 years. That's a quote from my Ecology lecturer years ago.
Forest land is increasing in the UK mainly due to monoculture of conifers, these degrade soils rather than improve them, as mixed forest does.
Kenilworth
New member
droid said:
That must have been some time back. Short-term ecosystem climax has been found to be mythical. Besides, anyone with common sense and the most casual observational skills would find your lecturer's assertion ridiculous.
Kenilworth
New member
What is climax vegetation? And, if it is what I think it is, how could you observe it in light of ecologist's belief that it may be thousands of years in the making?
About the coniferous forests. The succession of forests often begins as conifer-dominant since they are able to thrive in depleted soils. Because these are short-lived trees, they will gradually give way to hardwoods as the canopy opens and the rotting of the wood itself adds some small nutrients. Then the long process of soil creation begins.
I do not know if this process will hold true in the UK forests you mention, but it is typical in climates favoring deciduous forests, which the UK certainly has.
About the coniferous forests. The succession of forests often begins as conifer-dominant since they are able to thrive in depleted soils. Because these are short-lived trees, they will gradually give way to hardwoods as the canopy opens and the rotting of the wood itself adds some small nutrients. Then the long process of soil creation begins.
I do not know if this process will hold true in the UK forests you mention, but it is typical in climates favoring deciduous forests, which the UK certainly has.
droid
Active member
Pioneer species are mostly herbivorous. Woody plants come later once a degree of soil stabilisation has occurred.
The first woody species (in Britain except parts of the Highlands of Scotland) is generally birch. These are relatively short lived. Climax vegetation is usually oak/ash woodland. This might be different in wetter areas where alder is more prevalent.
Conifers are by no means short lived: there are Douglas Firs in Scotland that are over 150 years old. You have your Bristlecone Pines.
You really should stick to meanderings. You are better at that.
The first woody species (in Britain except parts of the Highlands of Scotland) is generally birch. These are relatively short lived. Climax vegetation is usually oak/ash woodland. This might be different in wetter areas where alder is more prevalent.
Conifers are by no means short lived: there are Douglas Firs in Scotland that are over 150 years old. You have your Bristlecone Pines.
You really should stick to meanderings. You are better at that.
Kenilworth
New member
I see. So an oak tree can appear on a rubble heap within 50 years? I'm not sure what this proves. My point was that the soils and ecosystems of both of our nations are wrecked.
Certainly there are very old conifers. The pine forests that spring up in the wake of bad forestry, or abandoned farms, are dying within sixty or eighty years. The Douglas Fir, which you mention, is often replanted by loggers in the US after the clearcut of hardwoods, since it is valuable as timber.
Interestingly, many of the previously wooded slopes in my county, having lost all topsoil to the plow, have become permanent prairies, with a few cedar trees and long grasses, little else.
Certainly there are very old conifers. The pine forests that spring up in the wake of bad forestry, or abandoned farms, are dying within sixty or eighty years. The Douglas Fir, which you mention, is often replanted by loggers in the US after the clearcut of hardwoods, since it is valuable as timber.
Interestingly, many of the previously wooded slopes in my county, having lost all topsoil to the plow, have become permanent prairies, with a few cedar trees and long grasses, little else.
alastairgott
Well-known member
Kenilworth said:
You mean lost all topsoil due to being exposed to the weather.
This is arguably an example of worse forestry management, a good mix of fast growing and slow growing trees will keep all the soil together, coupled with selecting small areas with which to deforest rather than large swathes of land.
Anyway, I've been ignoring this topic for a while, what's soil n forests got to do with BCA and Caving?
Kenilworth
New member
alastairgott said:
Yes, logging then plowing steep slopes led to rapid erosion due to exposure. The logging itself would probably have been enough, the farming was only an accelerant, and an effort to salvage some profits from doomed hillsides.
What has it got to do with caving? We are rather far off topic, but I've been trying to connect our history of poor land use to what has become, on a much smaller scale, our history of poor cave use. It will take some reading of previous posts to understand how we got here.
Tommy
Active member
Kenilworth said:
Why are you doing that?
If you so desperately want to get het up about it, how about forums such as these:
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php
http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?board=34.0
http://thegreenlivingforum.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=12
I'm sure they'd appreciate your expertise and conversational guidance.
Positive: I wonder what kind of advertising revenue the viewing of this entertaining thread generates for the forum's upkeep?
Negative: Does Kenilworth consider the environmental impact of his personal internet usage, even beyond the hot air?
"Several recent studies and articles have shown that a simple Google search can result in 1-10 grams of CO2 emissions.
Most computers create 40-80 grams of greenhouse gas emissions per hour through their electricity use... [think about servers too!]
Sources say that the internet accounts for 3 percent of US electricity consumption and 2 percent of global CO2 emissions."
Hastily sourced: http://www.treehugger.com/gadgets/what-is-the-environmental-impact-of-the-internet.html
How does problematic internet usage affect the BCA, cavers, caving, and caves? Well it's given me something to do for 5 minutes after uni!
Kenilworth
New member
droid said:
In what way?
owd git said:
OK.
As much criticism as my ramblings (meanderings, trolling, hot air, airy-fairy nonsense, etc.) have received, you may have forgotten that you yourself have been chided on this forum for the unintelligible nature of some of your posts. I requested citation of my selfishness. That request stands. I fail to see that the quote you cited has any connection to selfishness.
Topimo, what have those got to do with caving? As for my own destruction of the so-called environment, I'm over forty hours sick in bed, so I reckon that the absence of car usage, or food preparation, and my greatly reduced electricity drain, have made up for these latest posts anyway. :
Kenilworth
New member
Well, most conifer forests in my area are growing on tired old farmland, and are dying. It is not too cold here to support deciduous trees, which make up probably 98% of local forests. The only reason I can imagine for these pine forests is their ability to thrive on poor soil (some nearby pines were planted post-logging, and I imagine they may have been the source of seed for these volunteer forests).
I have spent many hours in one of these dying conifer forests, as it is an area of intense karst and the scene of a state-sponsored hydro/speleo-inventory. Many trees are down now, and I expect that at least some of the hardwood saplings present will grow and thrive. As I've said, conifers are relatively uncommon here, and that this forest will eventually revert to hardwoods is absolute. This is true too of the planted pine forests.
It has been a long time since I read it, but didn't Thoreau, writing after his own observations, state that, in New England, succession after the cutting of a hardwood forest was back to hardwood via pine? Interestingly, much of that essay was dedicated to refuting the idea that trees could spring up from nothing, or from seeds that had been in the ground, dormant, for centuries.
Anyway, I haven't been outside since Friday night, and am absolutely stir-crazy. I'm half-motivated to ride out and film one of these conifer forests I've been talking about, to share as a matter of interest (not debate), if you're interested. I'm far from a naturalist, ecologist, or any sort of -ist, and share Mr. Thoreau's weakness for sometimes assuming answers too quickly and presenting them with too much false authority. As in his case, I think this is a matter of passion. Impatiently, we want to understand.
I have spent many hours in one of these dying conifer forests, as it is an area of intense karst and the scene of a state-sponsored hydro/speleo-inventory. Many trees are down now, and I expect that at least some of the hardwood saplings present will grow and thrive. As I've said, conifers are relatively uncommon here, and that this forest will eventually revert to hardwoods is absolute. This is true too of the planted pine forests.
It has been a long time since I read it, but didn't Thoreau, writing after his own observations, state that, in New England, succession after the cutting of a hardwood forest was back to hardwood via pine? Interestingly, much of that essay was dedicated to refuting the idea that trees could spring up from nothing, or from seeds that had been in the ground, dormant, for centuries.
Anyway, I haven't been outside since Friday night, and am absolutely stir-crazy. I'm half-motivated to ride out and film one of these conifer forests I've been talking about, to share as a matter of interest (not debate), if you're interested. I'm far from a naturalist, ecologist, or any sort of -ist, and share Mr. Thoreau's weakness for sometimes assuming answers too quickly and presenting them with too much false authority. As in his case, I think this is a matter of passion. Impatiently, we want to understand.
cavemanmike
Well-known member
HOW DOES BCA PROBLEMS IMPACT CAVERS, CAVING AND CAVES
off bloody topic again if you ask me 
Kenilworth
New member
There there Mike, everything will be ok. I think we got about all of the on-topic input that could be expected, so let it drift.
mr conners
Member
How patronising.
Kenilworth
New member
droid said:I'd be interested in your film, Kenilworth.
Here you are:
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=21635.msg275370;topicseen#msg275370
I wonder how many years post-film we'll keep saying film?
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