Insurance disclaimers??
- Thread starter thenuttygang
- Start date
Andy Sparrow
Active member
Bob Mehew said:
Are you really saying that every club in this country should forbid guests joining any of their trips unless they take out temporary membership, lest they invalidate the insurance? Really?
If ten club members and one uninsured guest are on a trip together and one BCA insured member knocks a rock on another are you seriously suggesting suggesting the the presence of the guest will invalidate the insurance of all the others. This is utter nonsense. It has to be, or the world has gone mad.
bazdog
Member
Bob Mehew said:
I'd agree with Andy that this does seem odd and until I read this thread I wasn't aware this was the case.
In regards to temporary membership then it does seem straight forward as it seems you don't need to arrange any insurance prior to the trip but just notify BCA at the end of the year. The example is for beginners but I am assuming this is ok for any temporary member despite their experience level.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Andy Sparrow said:
A refinement to Andy's scenario:
Nine club members are on a trip together and find a lost soul while underground (uninsured novice self-leading) and escort them in their team; one BCA insured member knocks a rock on another. Because of the presence of an uninsured member in the team are you seriously suggesting the presence of the guest will invalidate the insurance of all the others?
Club insurance, why bother? from BCA website:
http://www.british-caving.org.uk/membership/insurance/04C0076_Club_insurance.pdf
Although the documents could do with updating since 2011:
http://www.british-caving.org.uk/?page=115
(Top of page still says 2010 & synopsis 2006!)
Mike
http://www.british-caving.org.uk/membership/insurance/04C0076_Club_insurance.pdf
Although the documents could do with updating since 2011:
http://www.british-caving.org.uk/?page=115
(Top of page still says 2010 & synopsis 2006!)
Mike
TheBitterEnd
Well-known member
Cap'n Chris said:
:doubt:
Who knows? This is an insurance company and most will use absolutely any excuse not to pay out. In your example one would hope it is fairly clear, but what if the guest knocks the rock on to the insured (I assume no pay out because BCA insurance is PL not personal injury) or and insured person knocks a rock on to the guest?
In fact it is possible that a club may find itself being sued by the insurance company of an injured or deceased person.
All that said, I quite agree that this is mainly just hypothetical and that the risk is very small.
nickwilliams
Well-known member
I think it's probably too late to say 'before this gets totally out of hand...' but nevertheless...
Point 1 is that the issue around full club membership mainly pertains when a club has significant assets such as a hut. If there are uninsured members of that club and there were a claim, then that club may find that despite the fact that the majority of its members are insured, the club assets still need to be sold to pay the claim for those members who are not insured. This is why ALL members of a club must join the scheme in order for the club's assets to be reliably protected.
(Point 1a is that all club members benefit from the insurance, so BCA believes that all club members should pay towards it, but that's not actually relevant to the discussion at hand.)
Point 2 is that the scheme will always protect properly insured members of a club for their individual liability no matter what the status of other members of the trip is. However, a claim against an uninsured guest will not be paid by BCA and so unless the guest has other insurance which provides equivalent cover, the other members of the party may not be able to make a meaningful claim against the guest.
Point 3 is that the best way to be sure that cover is as watertight as possible is for all members of the trip to be insured by BCA, but it's not an 'all or nothing' situation.
Point 4 is if you have questions about the BCA insurance, the best thing is to contact the BCA, not seek answers from some bloke on an internet forum...
Regards to all
Nick.
Point 1 is that the issue around full club membership mainly pertains when a club has significant assets such as a hut. If there are uninsured members of that club and there were a claim, then that club may find that despite the fact that the majority of its members are insured, the club assets still need to be sold to pay the claim for those members who are not insured. This is why ALL members of a club must join the scheme in order for the club's assets to be reliably protected.
(Point 1a is that all club members benefit from the insurance, so BCA believes that all club members should pay towards it, but that's not actually relevant to the discussion at hand.)
Point 2 is that the scheme will always protect properly insured members of a club for their individual liability no matter what the status of other members of the trip is. However, a claim against an uninsured guest will not be paid by BCA and so unless the guest has other insurance which provides equivalent cover, the other members of the party may not be able to make a meaningful claim against the guest.
Point 3 is that the best way to be sure that cover is as watertight as possible is for all members of the trip to be insured by BCA, but it's not an 'all or nothing' situation.
Point 4 is if you have questions about the BCA insurance, the best thing is to contact the BCA, not seek answers from some bloke on an internet forum...
Regards to all
Nick.
TheBitterEnd
Well-known member
nickwilliams said:
Where's the fun in that?
Andy Sparrow
Active member
nickwilliams said:
Precisely, thank you, Nick. Temporary membership/insurance is not for the benefit/protection of the club/club members but for the benefit of the guest in the (extremely) unlikely event that they cause injury to another. It makes perfect sense to communicate this and suggest this option to guests, but it does not make sense to make this a required condition of them joining club members on a caving trip.
I hope I haven't missed the point of this thread but the BCA Insurance FAQ at http://british-caving.org.uk/?page=15 says:
55
Q:
How do we insure temporary members (e.g. novices coming on their first caving trip)?
A:
Clubs will automatically be covered for temporary members so long as they have paid for all of their normal members as either caving or non-caving members of the scheme. There is no a limit on the number of temporary members a club can take caving in any given year, but, see 56 and 57 below:
56
Q:
How long does temporary member cover last?
A:
Temporary members? cover lasts for 17 consecutive days only (i.e. three weekends). It cannot be renewed. If people want cover for longer than this, they will be expected to join the scheme as a full member and pay the appropriate contribution.
57
Q:
Will clubs still have to keep records of temporary membership?
A:
Yes, the names and addresses of temporary members, and the dates on which they went caving, will need to be recorded and sent to BCA at or before the end of each year.
55
Q:
How do we insure temporary members (e.g. novices coming on their first caving trip)?
A:
Clubs will automatically be covered for temporary members so long as they have paid for all of their normal members as either caving or non-caving members of the scheme. There is no a limit on the number of temporary members a club can take caving in any given year, but, see 56 and 57 below:
56
Q:
How long does temporary member cover last?
A:
Temporary members? cover lasts for 17 consecutive days only (i.e. three weekends). It cannot be renewed. If people want cover for longer than this, they will be expected to join the scheme as a full member and pay the appropriate contribution.
57
Q:
Will clubs still have to keep records of temporary membership?
A:
Yes, the names and addresses of temporary members, and the dates on which they went caving, will need to be recorded and sent to BCA at or before the end of each year.