Is it acceptable to modify a cave to make a potential rescue easier?

[pisshead]

How would you like the possible death of a caver on your conscious if they died from a spinal injury.

How on earth would it be on Stu's or anyone here's conscience?
The hypothetical caver chose to go somewhere from where they would not be easily rescued - it is a conscious decision that we all make. It is not the rescuers' or anyone else's fault!

 

[graham]

How would you like the possible death of a caver on your conscious if they died from a spinal injury.

How on earth would it be on Stu's or anyone here's conscience?
The hypothetical caver chose to go somewhere from where they would not be easily rescued - it is a conscious decision that we all make. It is not the rescuers' or anyone else's fault!

No, it almost definitely would be Whitlackington's fault.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Life is full of "if onlys". Remove one load of "if onlys" and another lot pops up.

 

[whitelackington]

I don't want to drag this out, I was responding to the original posting.
If it is not acceptable to pre-modify a cave for rescue
why is it acceptable to dig a cave.
Most new caves in The U.K. are got into by massive amounts of digging,
IE modifying the cave. :-\

Just three recent examples,
Titan,
Upper Flood Swallet,
Charterhouse Cave.

 

[martinr]

I don't want to drag this out, I was responding to the original posting.
If it is not acceptable to pre-modify a cave for rescue
why is it acceptable to dig a cave.
Most new caves in The U.K. are got into by massive amounts of digging,
IE modifying the cave. :-\

Just three recent examples,
Titan,
Upper Flood Swallet,
Charterhouse Cave.

In the case of Upper Flood, you would probably have to do a lot more in the way of modification before you could get a caver plus stretcher through the 13 Squeezes (easySqueeze to Andrew's Grotto)?

 

[dunc]

I don't want to drag this out

So why pose the question about digging into new cave as it is entirely different to modifying a cave for rescue?

If it is not acceptable to pre-modify a cave for rescue why is it acceptable to dig a cave.

Digging produces new cave (if you're lucky enough) - modifying for rescue would merely remove certain obstacles and make it easier to gain access to certain caves. I'm not familiar with Upper Flood or Charterhouse but the Titan dig (bottom) found the largest shaft in the country, the dig at the top gave access to a fine trip down (and/or up) a fine shaft..

Removing the obstacles at the entrance series to lets say Strans Gill would remove the challenge of the pot and allow increased access to the pretties..

 

[potholer]

Pragmatically speaking, digging involving passage widening by bedrock removal often involves only the diggers knowing what the cave was actually like before, so there's far less chance of a storm of complaint even if the passage had been passable with difficulty before modification.

 

[Cavegod]

Depends on the cave in some cases it would be a good idea and in others it is'nt.

 

[Skyrmy]

Slit pot


Only joking 

 

[graham]

So, now that when know that there is electricity at Titan, when are they installing the stretcher lift?

 

[Christian_Chourot]

How would you like the possible death of a caver on your conscious if they died from a spinal injury.

I'd quite possibly rather die with a spinal injury than live with one.

 

[footleg]

In the case of Upper Flood, you would probably have to do a lot more in the way of modification before you could get a caver plus stretcher through the 13 Squeezes (easySqueeze to Andrew's Grotto)?

Probably better to remove the formations and re-home them in an easier cave then. I've heard that GB chamber might be big enough to house them all? That would greatly reduce the risk of an incident in a cave where a stretcher would not pass by diverting the traffic to the new location. I'd hate to have it on my conscience if I have found a decorated cave and then someone went down it to see the pretties and had an accident beyond a point where a stretcher could reach.  :doubt: 

 

[Peter Burgess]

In the case of Upper Flood, you would probably have to do a lot more in the way of modification before you could get a caver plus stretcher through the 13 Squeezes (easySqueeze to Andrew's Grotto)?

Probably better to remove the formations and re-home them in an easier cave then. I've heard that GB chamber might be big enough to house them all? That would greatly reduce the risk of an incident in a cave where a stretcher would not pass by diverting the traffic to the new location. I'd hate to have it on my conscience if I have found a decorated cave and then someone went down it to see the pretties and had an accident beyond a point where a stretcher could reach.  :doubt:   

An excellent idea. As a reward to all those who help with this monumental task, you could allow each of them to keep up to five of the best formations for themselves, or put them in a cave of their choice.  :doubt:

 

[bat]

This thread makes me wounder at what point people think it is acceptable to modify a cave for any reason.
It seems quite acceptable for a person to dig into new cave, so if I can't get past an obstacle to get to the rest of the cave should I not then be aloud to remove it. :-\

 

[graham]

This thread makes me wounder at what point people think it is acceptable to modify a cave for any reason.
It seems quite acceptable for a person to dig into new cave, so if I can't get past an obstacle to get to the rest of the cave should I not then be aloud to remove it. :-\

Aloud? You want to bang it then do you? 

 

[Peter Burgess]

This thread makes me wounder at what point people think it is acceptable to modify a cave for any reason.
It seems quite acceptable for a person to dig into new cave, so if I can't get past an obstacle to get to the rest of the cave should I not then be aloud to remove it. :-\

As with any serious modification to a cave, surely it all depends on the permission of either the owner or whatever management body has been set up to look after it. If you wanted to enlarge somewhere to make somewhere easier to reach or safer, then just get permission. This discussion is more about whether such enlargements should be encouraged, rather than whether we are allowed to do them. Permission is in the hands of owners etc, whether we should ask for that permission is for us to decide as individuals, clubs, or rescue teams.

 

[gus horsley]

In the case of Upper Flood, you would probably have to do a lot more in the way of modification before you could get a caver plus stretcher through the 13 Squeezes (easySqueeze to Andrew's Grotto)?

Probably better to remove the formations and re-home them in an easier cave then. I've heard that GB chamber might be big enough to house them all? That would greatly reduce the risk of an incident in a cave where a stretcher would not pass by diverting the traffic to the new location. I'd hate to have it on my conscience if I have found a decorated cave and then someone went down it to see the pretties and had an accident beyond a point where a stretcher could reach.  :doubt:   

An excellent idea. As a reward to all those who help with this monumental task, you could allow each of them to keep up to five of the best formations for themselves, or put them in a cave of their choice.  :doubt:

Or maybe flog them on ebay as coming from an unspecified location in China?

 

[bat]

Aloud? You want to bang it then do you? 

No just wondering. What is an acceptable obstacle to most can be a total bar to others.

As with any serious modification to a cave, surely it all depends on the permission of either the owner or whatever management body has been set up to look after it. If you wanted to enlarge somewhere to make somewhere easier to reach or safer, then just get permission. This discussion is more about whether such enlargements should be encouraged, rather than whether we are allowed to do them. Permission is in the hands of owners etc, whether we should ask for that permission is for us to decide as individuals, clubs, or rescue teams.

Sorry wrong choice of wards  I know Permission is in the hands of owners etc. Perhaps I should have said (so if I can't get past an obstacle to get to the rest of the cave would it then be acceptable to remove it.)  :-\ assuming I have permission from the owners.

 

[footleg]

As with any serious modification to a cave, surely it all depends on the permission of either the owner or whatever management body has been set up to look after it.

Out of interest, who does own caves (in the UK at least)? Does the land owner own the cave below their land? Or does this come under mineral rights? Who owns the mineral rights for land where a claim has not been specifically entered?

 

[Chris J]

The diggers/explorers should get the right to widen a slot/squeeze when exploring - if they choose to leave it just big enough for them (or the largest member of their team) to fit through then others shouldn't go and make it even larger.

If they decide to make it nice and big to make exploration safer and the obstacle easier for them then that is fine.

I would put this decision in the hands of the original explorers/diggers rather than 'owners'. Once a cave is 'opened' and is not an active project I think it is very bad ettiquette for a tourist caver to visit it and make it easier for them to pass when all the exploration has been done with the obstacle in place.

Basically I think we need to justify modifying a cave - exploration or rescue is justification - not because you want to make it easy to have a good rubber neck.