Is this suicidal?

You were doing so well with the justification, and then added a paragraph which undoes what you say above (and, perhaps is a literary example of the same problem). You should just have stopped with the first paragraph which made it's point well.

The second paragraph is a perfect example of the sort of heuristic trap which can lead to disaster.
The fact that everyone got out ok has no bearing on the risk present. All that getting out okay on a single episode shows is that the risk of a poor outcome is not 100%.
It is an easy trap to drift into - if you want to read more try looking up avalanche safety and personal factors / heuristic traps .
& in the same vein I'm not sure that 'everything' that could go wrong went wrong.....this is akin to 'the last place we looked' thought (did you go on looking in other places after you found it?).

 

ianball11

Active member
I think that's wrong Cap n Chris, you can have loads of reward with minimal risk surely!

Oops!!!  :eek:

Sorry, read the question Ian!  :-[

Completely agree Captain Sir.
 

Alex

Well-known member
Also Amy has to realise the temperature of water in this country makes doing something like that particular very serious indeed, so peeps from here will take a very dim view on that. People have been killed hung up in waterfalls. Ireby Fell (Dong pitch), near death in Diccan (severe Hypothermia). The one mentioned above in Garlands which I was not aware of and others. In-fact I am sure I have read of quite a few deaths in America in-fact more than here of people being hung up in waterfalls. (Correct me if I am wrong).

So its the cavalier attitude people don't like, though I agree the vid shows what can go wrong. Just think if that guy was not there to rescue her or they did not have a separate rope, then what would have happened?

I guess with me when I am caving water, is always on my mind, more than boulders (which is surprising considering how many times I have been whacked by them!)
 

Alex

Well-known member
If she had a knife and even if she did as people have said, she could not see anything, she could easily accidently cut the rope instead/as well as. Anyone seen the film Sanctum hehe?

Really though she could rescue herself by putting on ascending gear and getting weight off her rack but she either did not have it equipped or had not thought of it in the panic, hence why she needed rescuing so again if he was not there....
 

Roger W

Well-known member
As I'm sure has been mentioned before on the forum, long hair (and beards!) and SRT devices should be kept well apart.

Could long loose locks be just as much a hazard as falling water?
 
A few years ago a friend exiting a rather wet SE Pot (the big pitch, minus deviation, I think) had her scarf washed off and her hair caught in the stop. She managed trim her hair but couldn't free the stop which was well and truly jammed. It did end well...after cooling  down very fast.
 

Kenilworth

New member
Alex said:
Really though she could rescue herself by putting on ascending gear and getting weight off her rack but she either did not have it equipped or had not thought of it in the panic, hence why she needed rescuing so again if he was not there....

Yes, this is another reason that the justification for this trip is a little flat. It's not good enough to say, "There's an expert rigger, bolt climber, etc. etc. in the party, so it's ok to do something I'm unqualified for--he can rescue me if I need it." And unless I'm missing something important, anyone without the skills or equipment to free their own caught hair or gear from a rack is unqualified for a wet pitch, probably any pitch of much consequence. This is quite a separate issue from the simple rigging in water question. I agree with Amy that if a wild bunch of skilled cavers want to rappel waterfalls, and know the risks involved, then they should rappel waterfalls. But I do not entirely agree that "...the *SKILLS* of the people there meant there were no incidents..." Clearly there was an incident, seemingly caused by a lack of skills or judgment by at least some of the party.
 

Amy

New member
Or it is called
"Shit happens"

Please tell me you are perfect and have never had any close calls underground or seen them happen in your group of trusted friends?

If you havnt good and well for you. But i doubt if you keep caving that being totally incident free will last forever. Unless perhaps you just do the same easy ones over and over - but then again complacency is dangerous in and of itself.

It is easy to sit in an ivory tower and judge. But ivory sure shows every speck of mud...
 

Kenilworth

New member
Amy said:
Or it is called
"Shit happens"

Please tell me you are perfect and have never had any close calls underground or seen them happen in your group of trusted friends?

If you havnt good and well for you. But i doubt if you keep caving that being totally incident free will last forever. Unless perhaps you just do the same easy ones over and over - but then again complacency is dangerous in and of itself.

It is easy to sit in an ivory tower and judge. But ivory sure shows every speck of mud...

Oh dear.

I'm a rudimentary caver. Being solitary and learning primarily through my own mistakes, I have done enough stupid things that I should have been hurt by now. Haven't been. Oh well. Maybe one day...
I have also foolishly led my friends into caving situations they couldn't handle, with dangerous results. I've made most of the mistakes that can be made, but I try to learn. And I've learned that I've done many things I really had no business doing.

Yes, things happen, and I have often and passionately remarked on the idiocy of trying to turn every tragedy into a "learning experience." Still, there are good reasons to identify the causes of dangerous situations, and some good may still come from stating and restating the most basic lessons learned from these. It has been long understood that a caver should be able to changeover to free a jammed device... here is another example that reinforces that this skill should be standard. This isn't abusive of your friend, it's meant to be productive. And do try not to take every contradiction of your own conclusions as an assault. It is good, to a point, that we disagree and share our arguments.

 

Amy

New member
Since everyone seems to lazy to go read his (public) fb note on this here it is copy pasted

Megan Carden, Heath Rowland, Chris Higgins, and I (Clinton Elmore) decided to enter [TNWH148] Cave to see what it's like. I had been just inside the entrance to it three weeks prior and knew it was a very wet multi-drop (very much like Thunder Hole in Alabama). The water pouring into the entrance was a tiny stream that was lower than two weeks prior, so I saw no reason to abandon the trip due to too high water. I opted to wear a full 3mm wet suit since I wear a wet suit 99% of the time when doing anything that is wet and/or vertical, even when others don't (in case I have to be in the water/cave longer than anticipated). The others in the group run much hotter than me and wore only polypro (the water in the cave was warmer than usual cave water which also helped). Once inside the cave, we rigged a 50 foot rope for the first two short pits (a five foot pit and a 15 foot pit). Some where between the entrance and the first 15 foot pit the cave gained a lot more water from an unknown source. This new larger stream was still manageable and even enjoyable to rappel in for the first two short pits.

Below the first two pits, I found the next drop only 30 feet away and proceeded to rig the rope for it. The only way I could find to rig the pit was to tie the rope to the bottom of the first rope and than use an old hand drilled bolt for the main anchor. Looking down the pit with the rope tied to the bolt, I noticed that 80% of the water in the stream drops down a parallel cloverleaf portion of the pit while the rope appeared to mostly be in spray. From the top, the drop appeared to be much less wet than the similar pits in Thunder Hole (AL) with the rope rigged where it was (mist and spray obscured my vision of the bottom of the pit). I put my ascender and cows tail on the vertical rope and the back up tie off rope respectively. I than jerked with my weight on the rope in a direction away from the drop to test the bolt and rigging. I decided to take as much tension out of the backup line as I could and rigged it to where the load was split between the bolt and the backup rigging (since I don't fully trust old hand drilled bolts). After a few more jerk tests, I rigged my micro rack in and proceeded to back over the lip. Once over the lip, I unclipped both my ascender and cow's tail, and then rappelled down the pit at a moderately fast speed, for me at least (since I hate doing rope work in waterfalls). I reached the bottom and rapidly unclipped from the rope, rushed out of the fall-zone/waterfall, and took the end of the rope with me. Once safely out of the fall-zone/waterfall, I yelled ?OFF ROPE!?. Fearing that someone might loose control on rope due to the waterfall, I had the end of the rope in a loop to catch any uncontrolled rappels. Megan gets on rope and rappels down around 25 feet before stopping. Megan then started yelling ?HELP!? while remaining in place on rope. At that point, I knew that our short, fun, and wet multi-drop cave trip instantly turned into a very serious situation.

I though through many different scenarios and many different options, I even though about a possible scenario where I climbed the rope around her and did pick-off. I remembered the we had a second 100 foot rope at the top of the pit just encase we felt like doing the second major pit in the cave. I waited for a minuet or so and was hoping that Chris was thinking about doing what I would do: use the second rope to rappel down and figure out what was wrong with her (he was). Chris had rigged the rope to the same bolt the first rope was rigged to (since no other anchors, natural or otherwise, existed). While this was going on, I quickly figured out Chris's plan with no communication (because would be my plan) and attempted to kept the two ropes separated from each other as best as I could (to try to prevent the ropes from twisting together).Chris assessed what was wrong and finished doing a modified SRT pick-off to rescue Megan. He then clipped her ascenders into the rope and got her to climb out of the pit (she was only 25 feet away from the top). Chris then rappels down to the bottom and we discuss what happened. I learned that Megan's hair had been knocked out of it's tie and got fed through her micro rack (she had to hold her helmet somewhat close to the rack to use it as a shield against the waterfall while rappelling). Chris and I discussed what to do next and I told him that I'm fine with waiting at the bottom of the pit while he climbs out since I had a wet suit on. Chris climbs the second rope 90% of the way out of the pit before changing over and coming back down. I was very surprised to see him and asked him what happened. He was completely worn out and couldn't talk until he had a chance to catch his breath. He finally was able to tell me that the ropes were twisted and both ropes actually fed into his ascenders and got stuck. After I was informed of our newest situation, Chris and I both yelled up ?PULL ONE ROPE!? Thankfully Heath and/or Megan heard our yells and started pulling the rope number two.

Seeing that Chris was completely spent from his last climb, I decided to climb up next. I yelled ?ON ROPE!? before stepping out into the fall zone/waterfall and getting on rope. I opted to conserve energy while climbing in the portion of the pith that had light spray before muscling up through the 20 foot section of the pit with the heavy waterfall. This 20 foot section of the climb was hard to do but still had an air bell to rest in between the waterfall and the wall. If all things had went smoothly from the beginning, this 20 foot section of the pit would be difficult but not too dangerous to do. I climbed through the rough spot and was right below the lip when I noticed that Megan was oddly still on rope. She was unable to relay what was going on due to her physical state of exhaustion and hypothermia. I realized something was wrong, so I climbed around her on rope (luckily I was climbing with a "Texas" SRT climbing system which allowed me to rapidly climb around her with ease). I clipped my cow's tail into the carabiner on the bolt and unclipped my upper ascender from the rope rigged for the pit and clipped it into the section of rope between the bolt and backup anchor (the first rope). I pulled slack through my upper ascender while standing up in my lower foot ascender. After reaching the lip and finding a way to brace myself at the edge of the pit, I reached down and grabbed Megan's D-ring with my right hand while grabbing my upper ascender with my left hand (for leverage), and pulled her up and over the lip of the pit. She now was sitting down at the top of the pit near the edge. While doing this, Heath informed me that Megan's ascender had jammed up against the knot and that, once again, she had the bad luck of being stuck on rope with jammed gear. I then started helping Megan off rope while making sure she remained safely clipped in.  I finally freed her upper ascender from being jammed into the knot and told both her and Heath to head towards the entrance.

As they started traveling in the direction if the entrance, I shifted my focus to the task of getting Chris (who was tired and very cold) out of the pit alive. I stepped across the top of the pit and started looking for any way to redirect the rope as far away from the main waterfall as possible. I looked over everything and couldn't find a single anchor to rig to. I came up with the plan of wedging a large rock into a crack for one part of the redirect anchor and using myself as the other part of the anchor (me and the rock needed to hold just enough weight to move Chris over 4 feet). While setting everything up, I actually uncovered a better natural anchor that was underneath the large rock I planned to wedged in the crack. I quickly tied the rope off to it instead of going through with the earlier plan. When finished tying the knot, I yelled ?OFF ROPE!? to Chris below. After hearing ?ON ROPE!? from below, I shifted my focus back to Megan (I still saw her light at the bottom of the five foot pit around the corner). I stepped back across the top of the pit only to see her struggling against the full force of the waterfall on the short five foot drop. I got to her and with my help she successfully made it up the pit.

I then went back to the pit to check on Chris only to see him on rope and already past the roughest portion of the pit. Glad to see him up that high, I again shifted my focus back to Megan. I free climbed the five foot pit and found Megan struggling to fight the waterfall for the 15ft pit while Heath was at the top. At this point, I could tell that Megan was getting bad hypothermia so told her to get off rope and out of the water. I than yelled at Heath to go grab my 5mm wet suit vest that I had at the entrance of the cave. I took off my balaclava and gave it to Megan and started sharing body heat with her. While I was working on warming Megan up, Chris successfully climbed up the pit and started heading towards mine and Megan's location. Once he got to the top of the five foot pit, I told him to tend to Megan while I started de-rigging ropes and collecting any stray gear.

What I didn't know was that Chris was progressing towards a state of severe hypothermia while resting at the bottom of the pit. His condition was rapidly worsening until Megan's pack randomly fell down as I pulled her over the lip. He quickly took advantage of this good luck and put on Megan's rain jacket that was in her pack. While I was collecting gear for the trip out, Chris got Megan's dry polypro out of her pack and helped her change into it. After this, Heath showed up with my wet suit vest in hand, but this was now not needed. Chris informed me that he, Megan, and Heath were leaving the cave if I didn't need help. I told them I was fine and to take off. While they headed out, I coiled both 100 foot ropes and threw them up the five foot drop. I then reached the bottom of the 15 foot drop and tied both 100 foot ropes mid-line into the rope rigged for the 15 foot drop. I climbed three quarters of the way up and proceeded to pull the two ropes up while trying to keep them out of the waterfall. I finally threw the ropes up on a ledge at the top of the pit, and then I pulled up and coiled the 50 foot rope and started throwing the ropes and my pack in front of me through the entrance crawl. After 20 feet of throwing gear down a crawling passage, I made the discovery that I was actually heading down the wrong crawl. I grabbed the ropes and pack and threw them back out of the crawl after saying a few choice words. I finally went down the correct entrance crawl leading out of the cave. I finally climbed out of the cave only to see everyone topside and enjoying the nice day. ?At least my cave gear is finally clean,? I said as I tossed the three heavy wet ropes and my pack on to the ground next to the rest of the group.

All this happened only 75 feet from the entrance and in a matter of only a few hours. It doesn't take a long cave trip to make things dangerous!

The next day, I opted to go kayaking out in the nice warm weather rather than going into a cave.
 

Kenilworth

New member
It has been some weeks since I read Clinton's account, thanks for posting it. Quite reinforces that deficiencies in skill and judgment were probably more to blame than "shit".
 
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