Joining Fee for Clubs Reduced

[2xw]

Database application: join BCA get a virtual card to display on your mobile screen - if anyone needs to check its veracity they can visit BCA website and find out if you're a paid up member. No cards, no postage, payment can be automated so no major burden on voluntary effort etc.. It's the future, but it could be the present.

But I don't have a smartphone  :halo:

I reckon you're still young enough that you'll be priced out of not owning a smart phone at some point

 

[2xw]

More to the point, this is as a result of a ballot at the AGM which was passed by the membership. That proposal specifically included wording to the effect of removing the burden of membership administration from club secretaries... So not really sour grapes proving that point

 

[Pitlamp]

Pete Hall does make a good point; target the big things first then start worrying about the less big ones. For example, perhaps folks might consider their individual carbon footprint associated with driving or flying thousands of miles overseas on caving expeditions (and specifically factor in ways in which it might be reduced)? I'm not suggesting folk shouldn't go; it's just an example to make the point.

I avoided having a smart phone for good reasons. (I bought one earlier this year but only because I suddenly had a specific purpose for it). I tend to leave it at home when out caving as I don't want to have to leave it in the car or in a bag at an entrance in case it gets stolen and then misused. (In some ways a smart phone is a liability.)

A physical card has no monetary value so no-one's going to pinch it (unless it's concealed in something else) if they rummage through a rucsack. My typically gets used at least 2 or 3 times a year, when negotiating access for project caving, to show land owners or tenant farmers that the caving community is responsible enough to have thought of covering them for liability. There have been times when this has been the make or break. I've also been in a position where I've had to ask to see someone else's card to check they're covered by BCA insurance, when helping sort out access for them.

I'd not like to see a situation develop where those BCA members who do find their cards useful can't have them.

 

[aricooperdavis]

An electronic solution doesn't necessarily require a smartphone - one simple solution would be for cavers to be able to generate a PDF "certificate" through their user profile that contains a code that someone checking that "certificate" can validate on the BCA website. This PDF could be shown on a smartphone, or could be printed, or in a pinch the code could be scribbled on the back of a hand with a biro.

Incidentally, this is essentially the same system being used by the government to allow employers to verify COVID test results to check that their employees aren't just bunking off.

 

[mikem]

Yes, but farmers generally aren't very keen on that sort of thing...

 

[aricooperdavis]

Yes, but farmers generally aren't very keen on that sort of thing...

They don't have to actually verify the code if they trust that the certificate itself hasn't been faked. And faking a liability insurance certificate would probably invalidate any liability claim you made against a landowner anyway...

 

[2xw]

Is a plastic card (and I dunno about you but mine had spelling mistakes) intrinsically less trustworthy than a piece of paper

 

[aricooperdavis]

Is a plastic card (and I dunno about you but mine had spelling mistakes) intrinsically less trustworthy than a piece of paper

I guess most people have a printer but don't have an ID card printer, so there's a small "you'd have to order it online for very cheap" obstacle to overcome for faking a BCA card.

 

[Pitlamp]

The existing card is a lot more weatherproof than a piece of paper. It can live wherever, ready for use if asked for - and it doesn't matter when it gets soaked etc as it'll always be there in a form that doesn't look unconvincing. No forward planning is needed when you go away for the weekend.

Mikem made a very good point; many hill farmers still think in analogue. (Which is actually quite nice, in a way . . . )

 

[mrodoc]

This thread shows we don't have a society based on trust. If we did just telling somebody you are covered should be enough. Shame we don't.

 

[Ian Ball]

Why is BCA membership annual? If i could buy a two year membership that could halve the plastic with little admin effort if the IT infrastructure can deal with it?

Another option is a cheaper renewal price and you keep the same card.  Undated or as previously mentioned, with a expiration date sticker updated an ually.

I appreciate that the BCA card is little real environmental impact compared to other things but removal is an easy thing to do, a quick win that saves cash, seems an easy choice.

Having said that, I like my card.

 

[idriswilliams]

Current National Trust cards have a label saying "I am paper not plastic. and can be recycled as paper or added to a compost pile" Not had the opportunity to use it as an ice scraper but it cuts cheese OK.

 

[mikem]

I bought a four pack of beer saying no plastic, but the cardboard holder was plasticised!

 

[Robert Scott]

Current National Trust cards have a label saying "I am paper not plastic. and can be recycled as paper or added to a compost pile" Not had the opportunity to use it as an ice scraper but it cuts cheese OK.

Sadly in the back pocket of a pair of jeans, mine didn't really survive in the washing machine. It was still a National Trust card but whose?

 

[Ben W]

Would it be technically achievable to have a membership card that doesn't get replaced every year? You'd have to verify online whether it's expired or not, but I'd rather have a swanky card than a pdf.

 

[Oceanrower]

In, what, 12 years of being a member, I have not yet found a use for mine.

Surely it could be available for only those that request it!

 

[Robert Scott]

With regard to club members, whether cavers or non-cavers, joining BCA directly and this being the only route rather than through their club then I wonder about its impact on the BCA?s Insurance & Membership FAQ number 34.

Can a selection of club decide not to avail of the insurance membership?
No, if the club wants insurance for club risks (e.g. decisions of officers, club meets, etc) then it must declare all members (caving and non-caving) when selecting their membership category, should that category include insurance as a benefit.

So how will a club be informed that its membership, which could be 250+, has paid the individual insurance so that the officers and committee can be assured that their actions are covered?

How will the BCA chase up those individuals who just haven?t got round to paying up?

 

[PeteHall]

Exactly the same way they do now for members who pay BCA subs through another club.

 

[mikem]

The check may be the same, but currently they have to state they are members of another club, which won't work easily when everyone signs up individually.

 

[2xw]

Could work like this:

1. When secretary takes club subs, they ask for bca membership number
2. They check it (or plural in bulk) against database

The membership voted for it to happen and the bca is obliged to come up with a solution by next agm