• Black Sheep Diggers presentation - March 29th 7pm

    In the Crown Hotel Middlesmoor the Black Sheep Diggers are going to provide an evening presentation to locals and other cavers.

    We will be highlighting with slides and explanations the explorations we have been doing over the years and that of cave divers plus research of the fascinating world of nearby lead mines.

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Knotlow mine

Tangent_tracker

Active member
Are there any good PDHMS or similar articles regards the mine engineering of Knotlow folks? I had longer than normal to look around this time, and I figured there is enough evidence remaining to get an idea of what they did to control/pump water, but of course I'm not so sure! I'm intrigued with how they would have initially coped with the water in Waterfall chamber, and whether that source was used to power a water engine attached to the pipe headed to the lower levels?
Then those big arm levers in four ways are intriguing, almost looks like a way to gate off water to the sough, or perhaps divert? Did other shaft nearby go lower?

Cheers for any info :-)
 
Before the 210 was deepend the water would have flower through the old sough of east level to Crimbo Vein and swallow. The new sough was driven from Crimbo Vein past Fourways to the 210, capturing a lot of the natural flow. The large chamber between the 210 and the waterfall housed a waterwheel that pumped the below sough working on the 210 shaft on Whalfe Vein. Fourways was enlarged from a small hand picked shaft as can be seen in the shaft walls. The bell crank was something to do with a hauling system? The short level from here leads to a steam engine shaft, with the engine at the bottom causing heavy sooting. This was probably to dewater the working below, again draining to Crimbo Swallow. There is a lot more detail to go with this but that's my tuppence on the matter!
 
Before the 210 was deepend the water would have flower through the old sough of east level to Crimbo Vein and swallow. The new sough was driven from Crimbo Vein past Fourways to the 210, capturing a lot of the natural flow. The large chamber between the 210 and the waterfall housed a waterwheel that pumped the below sough working on the 210 shaft on Whalfe Vein. Fourways was enlarged from a small hand picked shaft as can be seen in the shaft walls. The bell crank was something to do with a hauling system? The short level from here leads to a steam engine shaft, with the engine at the bottom causing heavy sooting. This was probably to dewater the working below, again draining to Crimbo Swallow. There is a lot more detail to go with this but that's my tuppence on the matter!
Ah thanks, I would love to know more detail. Tried links posted here but sadly they lead nowhere! Certainly very interesting from an engineering point of view... I'm guessing the large crank devices were pre-1900? It is not at all obvious what purpose they surved, which is why I thought it might have been used to divert water...
 
Before the 210 was deepend the water would have flower through the old sough of east level to Crimbo Vein and swallow. The new sough was driven from Crimbo Vein past Fourways to the 210, capturing a lot of the natural flow. The large chamber between the 210 and the waterfall housed a waterwheel that pumped the below sough working on the 210 shaft on Whalfe Vein. Fourways was enlarged from a small hand picked shaft as can be seen in the shaft walls. The bell crank was something to do with a hauling system? The short level from here leads to a steam engine shaft, with the engine at the bottom causing heavy sooting. This was probably to dewater the working below, again draining to Crimbo Swallow. There is a lot more detail to go with this but that's my tuppence on the matter!
ALso I've never questioned where the water comes out to surface!? DId they find a natural sink?
 
If you type 'Monyash' into the field here it will bring up very old PDMHS Bulletin articles on the mines of the area, mostly from Vol. 1, though I haven't looked through them.

https://pdmhs.co.uk/files/articles.php

I've been through the Glebe Cottage index drawn up by John Beck and Doug Nash, and virtually every mention of Knotlow refers to articles in caving-related publications rather than specific mining documents.

Also attached Jim Rieuwerts' unpublished Peak Park paper on the area, but even he acknowledges the dearth of historical documentation on the mines.
 

Attachments

Sadly little comes up for knotlow Phil (capping of Engine Shaft), and your last link doesn't seem to provide a document either!
Have you ever taken a good look yourself?
 
I'll email it to you - it may have been stripped - it looks attached from here! And no, not really - a bit hard to get to for me on the bus, otherwise I would :(
 
Give us a shout sometime and will be happy to pick you up from TSG! Maybe get some others along too? I think there are some interesting clues down there, and worth investigating!
 
Just remembered, upstream towards Fourways from the junction of the waters from the new sough and the old sough (east level) is a run in chamber with the remains of another waterwheel, for drainage of the vein in this area below the sough level. IMO from the numerous shaft hillocks in the fields on both the Crimbo and Whalfe veins there is much more mine to re-access. There is what appears to be a choked incline by a field wall. There is also a line of shaft hillocks running from the Whalfe climbing shaft towards Monyash, but no known passage. The water I believe resurges in Lathkill Dale. Fossil/ drained stremway is present in several places, such as off the alternative pitches in the Whalfe engine shaft. After extreme floods (when Hillocks fills to bottom of the oil drum route last pitch), the water appears to drain under the east wall, particularly at the Monyash end where there appears to be an amphitheatre swallow type feature. Was this a pre mining watercourse to Lathkilldale? So many questions...
 
Just remembered, upstream towards Fourways from the junction of the waters from the new sough and the old sough (east level) is a run in chamber with the remains of another waterwheel, for drainage of the vein in this area below the sough level. IMO from the numerous shaft hillocks in the fields on both the Crimbo and Whalfe veins there is much more mine to re-access. There is what appears to be a choked incline by a field wall. There is also a line of shaft hillocks running from the Whalfe climbing shaft towards Monyash, but no known passage. The water I believe resurges in Lathkill Dale. Fossil/ drained stremway is present in several places, such as off the alternative pitches in the Whalfe engine shaft. After extreme floods (when Hillocks fills to bottom of the oil drum route last pitch), the water appears to drain under the east wall, particularly at the Monyash end where there appears to be an amphitheatre swallow type feature. Was this a pre mining watercourse to Lathkilldale? So many questions...
You certainly get the feeling there is a lot hidden within this area, upper levels which is evident of the hillocks visible.... I still don't get how the water heads back toward Lathkilldale when it appears to run in the opposide direction! I guess it heads back under at some point, or have I got my directions mixed up? The place certainly is mysterious!
 
All the known flow is captured by soughs from Crimbo and Whalfe veins into Crimbo Swallow. Originally I believe the two veins had separate drainage? Could the hillocks running to Monyash indicate an unknown sough or enlarged and now lost drainage? The stream passage in the roof of Hillocks main chamber needs enlarging, but I think it is intersected again by the workings beyond where the climbing shaft enters. Also, the pool accessed from the coffin level at the foot of the scree slope is an enigma. Has it been dived?
 
I was going to mention that pool at the foot of the steep scree slope. I'm sure I saw some sort of diving kit there on one of my two visits, but it was years ago. That section looked really interesting.
 
The EPC pumped the pool at the bottom of the main shaft in the late 1960s. They published a journal on what was found during the project.
A rag and chain pump resides in the PDMHS Museum at Matlock Bath that was recovered at the time.
I think that the DCA library has a copy of the tome.
 
The pool in Hillocks near the bottom of the oil drum route has also been pumped I believe, but I have seen it dry in drought and it is choked by large boulders. From the water surface it resembles a decline, but would be a major undertaking to push to a conclusion
 
The pool in Hillocks near the bottom of the oil drum route has also been pumped I believe, but I have seen it dry in drought and it is choked by large boulders. From the water surface it resembles a decline, but would be a major undertaking to push to a conclusion
Is this the one described in CCPC Newsletter 78? The pumping was done in April 2003.

Hillock s “Sump”
Conclusions of a pumping operation conducted by CCPC et al 23 4 03
A sump exists at the end of a level in Hillocks Mine Monyash known to the explorers
as the S west Cross Cut Sump. Access was by SRT down the 200’ Whalf Engine
Shaft. Pumping equipment etc was lowered and raised by winch for speed and
convenience. This enabled the whole operation to be completed in approx six hours
with a workforce of five.
5
Evidence of early mining can be seen in the form of hand picked levels throughout the
workings at different horizons though most are victims of reworking with gunpowder.
A clear example of this is illustrated in the main cartgate from the engine shaft
chamber to the above cross cut, where a complete hand picked level is intact in the
roof, the floor having been blasted out with powder to form the main gate, a more
detailed description can be found elsewhere. The cross level consists of a blind stope
like working, quite low, due to reworking and backfilling with deads. Near the end,
the floor dips down steeply due to a decrease in the depth of infill, estimated at 3m,
based on observations in the dewatered forefield.
This “dip” is permanently flooded to almost floor level, and the object of the pumping
operation, the exercise being to establish if the level continues below the flooded roof.
As the water level dropped a gently dipping bedding plane was revealed with a large
quantity of water issuing into the sump along the bedding- the reason for the flooding.
As pumping progressed deads were removed to a depth of 2.5 metres to reveal a
section of original floor with the forefield sloping back down the “dip” towards the
level.
Below the normal water perch, surprisingly large and uniform shot holes approx 24”
long and 1 ¼ “ diam. were noted driven vertically downward. Contemporaneous holes
have not been seen, at least by the writer, in other parts of the mine, and probably
represent late stage reworking with compressed air drilling.
Earlier work in the roof can be seen that represents the original driveage, with shot
holes of 7/8” diam, possibly dating from the 1750s or earlier, given the history of this
place. It will be noted when descending the engine shaft that yet another size of drill
hole is in evidence i.e. 1” diam. Which should allow accurate dating of the shaft.
Conclusion.
A calcite vein can be seen in the centre of the heading with a vertical groove picked
out. This may have been a lead scrin that was followed in the hope that it would belly
out with depth., a reasonable speculation. However in this instance no such vein was
found.
Len Kirkham CCPC. PDMHS
 
For understanding where the flows are going, consult the EPC survey. It's very hard to be sure what routes the drainage was taking before mining; the bung series provides an example of drainage going eastwards in the general direction of the Aussie Rift swallow, rather than going southeast on the orientation of the pipes. It may be that some higher-level drainage followed the line of Whalf Pipe towards the top end of Lathkill Dale, but at lower horizons it was more akin to the present routes, and bear in mind the miners may have in part utilised existing conduits when driving the various soughs and levels.
There are possibilities for more workings to be re-accessed between hillocks and Monyash if shafts could be dug out (I've always eyed up the hillock in someone's front garden as a great dig site!) and I was told by the owner of the house at the bottom of Horse Lane that the previous owner said there was a shaft under the big tree in the garden that you could hear running water in, though he wasn't 100% sure where it was and didn't want to destabilise the tree roots by digging about!
 
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