Knots...

[simonsays]

Okay, I can manage a bowline, figure of eight (and nine) alpine butterfly and a double figure if eight on a bight.  I can tie these with my eyes closed. I know I'm still in nappies in caving terms but was wondering if it was worth learning any other knots or will this set suffice for most needs?

Simon

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[paul]

They should be good enough for most cases, IMHO, but its also woth learning the Capuchin Knot to use as and end-knot and to join two ropes together.

 

[cap n chris]

Italian/Munter Hitch and directional Figure of 8 would be useful additions, plus knowing how to lock off an I/MH.

 

[damian]

For a fairly complete set, how's this:

Overhand
Fig of 8
Fig of 9
Rethreaded Fig of 8
Single & double stoppers
Cavers' and alpine butterfly (let's not have the debate again!)
Italian Hitch (inc. locking off)
Bowline
Bowline on the Bight (including a threaded one)
Double Bowline (or triple, as it's known by climbers)
Double Fisherman's
Barrel Knot
Double Figure of 8 on the Bight
Capuchin
Garda Hitch
Pusik Knot
Klemheist Prusik Knot
French Prusik
Tape Knot

 

[dunc]

For rigging an average trip in an average pothole, either bowline or fig8 on bight, bowline, fig8 and alpine butterfly are the most useful IMHO.

Obviously if you think you might lose a descender, ascender or wish to assist another caver on a climb or join ropes or etc etc, then it's worth learning some more!

 

[cap n chris]

Reckon Garda and Tape Knot are pretty arcane and exceptionally rare in terms of use/relevance esp. with the range of alternatives for the former and the fact that as far as the latter goes pretty much everyone buys slings nowadays rather than making their own.

 

[damian]

Reckon Garda and Tape Knot are pretty arcane

Agreed, but I was trying to come up with a fairly complete set.

I notice I missed out the directional Fig of 8 you mentioned ... not intentional. Out of interest what do you use it for underground?

 

[cap n chris]

Rigger protection, and for clipping bags to weight the rope for easier prussiking. Other knots can be used, obviously. It's just a little foible of mine.

 

[Alkapton]

In Ashley's book of knots is an interesting forked y hang - the triple crown in the bight.  Though he claims it is the strongest y hang it is not used because it is too hard to undo after loading... but wait.  If you tie it twice you get what he calls a decorative knot.  I suggest this must be a tad stronger and easy to undo even after a shock load because there will always be slack in the middle of the knot.  It is easy to tie and does not use a great amount of rope.  The only reason I dont use it is because others wont recognise it. I'd like to know what others think about what seems to me to be the best y hang knot.

 

[ianball11]

I usually put a directional fig 8 above a rope join. Though if its got easy ledges to stand on so more for neatness than in anger  I just go with a quick butterfly.

 

[Alkapton]

I just checked on line, then in Ashley and am confused I tie the knot just as they do but mine is dressed differently... or it is a variation.  I think I'm leaving more slack in the knot.  I'll try to post an image if I can find a place to upload to.

 

[mikem]

http://www.thepirateking.com/knots/knot_triple_crown.htm

http://www.animatedknots.com/fig8directional/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

For anyone who's not sure what we're talking about...

A useful comparison site:
http://www.southee.com/Knots/Knots_DoubleLoops.htm

Mike

 

[Alkapton]

That is tied once, I Turn it over and tie again so other side looks the same.  The three inner loops are where I leave slack and I think will never get loaded.

 

[mikem]

That is the same knot as shown in thepirateking, I think it just looks a bit different because the rope is thicker.

Mike

 

[Pie Muncher]

 

[cap n chris]

I think it just looks a bit different because the rope is thicker.

... and.... what kind of rope is it? - Is it caving rope?

 

[Alkapton]

A retired cowstail - 10mm static... kept for hstorical reasons ;-)

 

[damian]

A retired cowstail - 10mm static...

 

[Alkapton]

sorry
it should read dynamic.  you can see that from photo anyway.

 

[simonsays]

Many thanks for the replies folks, much appreciated. I can actually manage a few more knots than I had realised. Barrel knot for attaching cowstail carabiners and the Munster hitch. I'm still working on the method of locking this one off so best to decline my offer of a belay until I have it sorted )

Simon

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