Lack of conservation in Dreanen and the Management Policy

[Clive G]

Clive,

A simple question Ian : have you ever visited Ogof Draenen to cave in the system?

Yes, I was there as recently as last Sunday.

I had to hunt to find the quote below, which I remembered reading from when you posted it, but it has since been deleted from the 'Lack of Conservation in Dreanen and the Management Policy' thread. It should be between Reply #4 and Reply #5. Go and have a look. Your statement from just over a month ago professes complete ignorance of Ogof Draenen and a disinterest in ever visiting the cave. I've highlighted the relevant bit in red and quoted the remainder for the archive, so that it should not be so unfortunately lost again:

Imo,

Sorry but I think you are missing the point.

I said the PDCMG meets the dictionary definition of fascism, I did not say they were acting as fascists.  (You quote my line in your post).

What I don?t agree with is our peers imposing their opinion over us with implications if we don?t comply.

We are each entitled to our own opinion and we are each entitled to behave and act within the law of our country.

I have asked that we respect the fact the we each have differing opinions; you feel a strong taping policy is in order for example and I respect that. Personally, I am not certain it will make much difference and I have no strong feelings about it one way or the other. However, a dedicated photographer may have a different opinion. Could you respect that (even if you don?t agree) ?

I do not wish to join the PDCMG as it is unlikely that I will visit Ogof Draenan (I am not so enthusiastic about caving that I will travel lengths of the earth to explore all the exciting areas) and in any event, I am opposed to any self-appointed group/body that assumes responsibility and then commands dominion over others.

If you were to tell me that the land owner was initially refusing access and the group came into existence to protect and preserve cavers interests by negotiating with the landowner for access (for all cavers) then I would see that as an admirable position. However, there remains the problem of the apparently singular constitutional mandate (conservation) and the fact that it is totalitarian.

I said this in another post on one of these threads and I will say it again; it is precisely this kind of ?empire building? and politics that has utterly ruined caving in North Wales and it is quite clear (just look at the number of viewings and posts on this subject within the ?Wales? thread on this forum) that the same thing could easily happen in South Wales.

Why can?t everyone just accept that we have differing views and that we share the common interest of ?caving? and why can?t we stop trying to demand that people do ?this and that? or stop doing ?this and that? ?

Has anyone actually behaved irresponsibly in Draenen to the degree that ?cavers? have suffered a deep wound ?

I am still posting with the best of intentions.



Ian

But, you now inform me, without qualification, that you were in Ogof Draenen "as recently as last Sunday". A seasoned visitor. Which of your two opposing statements would you like me to believe, please?

Have you considered that you may be imposing thought patterns?.

It isn?t my intention to impose anything at all and I am not trying to do so. You are certainly correct that I am drawing parallels with unsatisfactory conditions in North Wales but I have done so as an example of how things can go wrong where individuals or groups are in conflict with a controlling body. It is my hope that South Wales (well, Draenen) doesn?t fall the same way.

And I jolly well hope so, too.

How more democratic can you get than ??????.

Well, as I have said so many times already. It isn?t democratic and to re-quote someone else?s suggestion as to how to better it;

A management group that has no pre-requiste for membership and whose agenda is to support and maintain (responsible) access for all cavers whilst maintaining the wishes of the landowners.

With regards to your last paragraph, this is a public forum of debate and it follows that a great many people could see, read and even contribute without ever having been in the cave. But beyond that, there is an underlying principle (conservation) that could be mirrored elsewhere and it is possible that other peoples experiences and opinions may help to bring about perspective or even a solution (or they may not of course).

As for a load of ill-judged stereotyping, I have tried to stick to actual factual experiences in the hope that they can be avoided in South Wales.

My original posts here were made with the best of intentions and I still remain with the best of intentions.

Ian

In which case, perhaps you'd like to explain how you've gone from being a complete novice to an informed critic in the space of a month and a bit . . .

Because everyone who is reading this doesn't know (me included); please could someone tell us;

1) Who, exactly, are the PCMDG ? (eg. a body made up of .... ?)
2) What is their mandate ?
3) Under what authority are they acting ?

Thanks,

Ian

I had to hunt to find the above quote, which I remembered reading from when you posted it, but it has since been deleted from the 'Ogof Draenen - New Entrance' thread. It should be between Reply #23 and Reply #24. Go and have a look.

I'm sure, on the evidence presented above, you'll understand why I have to be blunt.

What was that about 'hidden agendas' someone once said?

Are you really posting with the best intentions?

 

[andymorgan]

A management group that has no pre-requiste for membership and whose agenda is to support and maintain (responsible) access for all cavers whilst maintaining the wishes of the landowners.

There is access for cavers that has the blessing of the landowner.  You said had a trip there last weekend:

A simple question Ian : have you ever visited Ogof Draenen to cave in the system?

Yes, I was there as recently as last Sunday.

and did you find access difficult?

 

[Ian Adams]

Clive,

I think you are possibly reading too deeply into things.

I wasn?t aware posts were being deleted and I don?t know by who but it does explain why I too have had some difficulty in finding quotes.

My post (which you highlighted in red) was true. I had not visited Ogof Draenen and I was not au fait with the PDCMG. I said I was unlikely to visit because I had no plans to do so. Subsequently an opportunity to visit arose and I went on the trip. There is nothing more to it than that.

In which case, perhaps you'd like to explain how you've gone from being a complete novice to an informed critic in the space of a month and a bit . . .

I am neither and have not professed to be. Like others on the public forum, I have offered my opinion and shared my concerns.

What was that about 'hidden agendas' someone once said?

I haven?t got my head around this Clive because I don?t know to what you are alluding but I don?t have any hidden agenda(s). My concerns are transparent and given the recent posts on the thread on a compromise to the entrance started by Andy Sparrow, it seems ever more likely that caving in South Wales (Draenen) will go the same way as North Wales ? if I have an agenda it is avoid that happening which I have maintained throughout.

Are you really posting with the best intentions?

Yes 

Clive, I am not your enemy.

Andy,
I didn?t find access difficult but there again I didn?t arrange it either. How easy access is isn?t really the point though.

Regards,

Ian

 

[Clive G]

. . .

Clive, I am not your enemy.

. . .

All is well - the posts have not been deleted.

Bubba has posted links:

The final quote above, Reply #39 October 30, Ogof Draenen - New Entrance
FINAL POSTING

The first quote above, Reply #8 November 03, Lack of conservation in Dreanen and the Management Policy
FIRST POSTING

 

[Ian Adams]

Yes, thanks for sorting that out 

Regards,

Ian