Ladders and ladder safety

[Wolfo]

Well, our actual use  of wire ladders is  limited to  very narrow and sqeezy  shafts, where its not possible to use SRT in a propper way. Normally without safety line, as you are also able to use chimney climbing technics...

Ladder technology in GB is interessting to me, maybe somebody could show some old ladders?
In Germany we commonly use ladders of the  P. Allain  type.

 

[Fulk]

I used to climb short ladders without lifelines on a fairly regular basis (way back last millennium, you understand); one day I met a bloke at a caving conference who was in a wheel chair. I asked him what had happened, and he said that he was climbing the pitch in the Kingsdale Master Cave when the ladder broke, and he fell off. 'Christ', I said, 'and it's only ? what 18 feet?' 'Yes', he said, 'and I only fell half those 18 feet, but I have't walked since.' I stopped climbing ladders without lifelines.

 

[andrewmcleod]

I do get annoyed at cavers who treat short pitches differently to long pitches. All falls are potentially serious. You can quite easily brain yourself just falling over, why would unexpectedly falling 1m be any different?

I get equally irritated at handlines on a single bolt. The result of that bolt failing are almost certainly going to be as bad as if it was a short pitch.

Free-climbing is a bit different as, particularly if you have ever done bouldering, the falls tend to be under a bit more control (usually if you've screwed it up you know you are going to fall off).

If you are free-climbing then you have more control - yes, the rock can always fail but you can usually tell if it's good or bad rock, but if a handline, ladder or a belay breaks you are going down hard and there's usually nothing you can do about it.

 

[Pitlamp]

I used to climb short ladders without lifelines on a fairly regular basis (way back last millennium, you understand); one day I met a bloke at a caving conference who was in a wheel chair. I asked him what had happened, and he said that he was climbing the pitch in the Kingsdale Master Cave when the ladder broke, and he fell off. 'Christ', I said, 'and it's only ? what 18 feet?' 'Yes', he said, 'and I only fell half those 18 feet, but I have't walked since.' I stopped climbing ladders without lifelines.

Yes - that was the accident I was referring to above (and which was mainly caused by the former hemp cored wire construction method, as revealed by the X ray photography). The bloke in question was a member of one of my own clubs (before I joined) and, to my knowledge, he never did walk again, poor chap.

Cooleycr mentioned that climbing underground has many similarities with climbing on the surface. But there is one important difference; the back wall. This (for example) caused a serious accident to a caver in Notts II when the only way out was by diving a longish sump before ascending many pitches. He was leading an upward pitch and fell, safely, onto the rope. But in the process he hit the back wall and, among other injuries, broke his arm. The fact this was dealt with as a self rescue speaks volumes for the competence of those CDG members involved but it does illustrate the point.

There are some good arguments for dispensing with a lifeline on a ladder in certain circumstances though. I could give many examples but here's one. You're several short pitches down a very flood liable cave and unexpected rain has caused the water to rise quickly. All members of the team are experienced and confident ladder climbers. Because it's necessary to get out as quickly as possible the safer choice might be to climb ladders unlined. This is exactly like the decision about whether to climb unroped in an Alpine situation when an area of frequent stone fall must be crossed; it's probably safer to dance across solo, as fast as possible, than to delay the crossing by the need to manage ropes. This example (of many) is why I'm always wary of people being overly prescriptive by declaring that a lifeline should always be deployed on a ladder pitch. It's not realistic in the real world. Cavers are rightly free to use their own judgement, despite what might be regarded as popular opinion. Having calculated risk well is part of the satisfaction of drawing on years of experience in caving.

Strangely enough I thought of this topic today. I was out running and fell whilst descending fast off Whernside  . Banged myself up a bit on rocks and it hurt. (I nearly did "brain" myself from this fall, as andrewmc put it above.) Within seconds of landing the thought went through my mind that I was glad I'd not fallen off a pitch in a cave, as it'd hurt a whole lot more!

 

[cap n chris]

Sludge Pit is one place where a ladder is safer than SRT, there are nasty sharp edges near where the rope hangs.

Mike

It's also probably the easiest free-climbable ladder pitch on Mendip.

 

[tony from suffolk]

Sludge Pit is one place where a ladder is safer than SRT, there are nasty sharp edges near where the rope hangs.

Mike

It's also probably the easiest free-climbable ladder pitch on Mendip.

Ain't that an oxymoron Cap'n?

 

[JohnMCooper]

Sludge Pit is one place where a ladder is safer than SRT, there are nasty sharp edges near where the rope hangs.

Mike

Can be rigged as a Y-hang from the in-situ P-hangers.

 

[andrewmcleod]

There are some good arguments for dispensing with a lifeline on a ladder in certain circumstances though. I could give many examples but here's one. You're several short pitches down a very flood liable cave

What difference does the pitch length make? Falling off the ladder in such a situation is unacceptable regardless of the pitch height...

and unexpected rain has caused the water to rise quickly. All members of the team are experienced and confident ladder climbers. Because it's necessary to get out as quickly as possible the safer choice might be to climb ladders unlined.

I can totally agree that in such an emergency situation the risk of the ladder failing is much lower than the risk of getting flooded, although that presumably has to be balanced against the risk of getting washed off! (or just missing rungs).

In such a situation I agree you could choose to not use the lifeline that you have hanging from the top of the pitch since, presumably, it was dry when you went down and so you had no reason not to lifeline. The existence of emergency situations where you might not use the lifeline, however, doesn't give you a reason not to bring and use it in non-emergency situations.

Within seconds of landing the thought went through my mind that I was glad I'd not fallen off a pitch in a cave, as it'd hurt a whole lot more!

or possibly not hurt at all... (fortunately you were still able to go 'ow'!)

 

[droid]

Use a lifeline
Don't use a lifeline.

The choice is the individual's. No-one else. There should be no pressure either way.

Trying to enforce your safety values on others that you do not know is unacceptable.

 

[Kenilworth]

Use a lifeline
Don't use a lifeline.

The choice is the individual's. No-one else. There should be no pressure either way.

Trying to enforce your safety values on others that you do not know is unacceptable.

Amen.

However, if you, as an experienced caver making an informed decision, are leading a mob of new and ignorant cavers, your personal safety values should not be a deciding factor. Be extra careful with the lives and health within your influence. I have learned this the hard way.

As was hinted at by someone earlier, it is not possible or necessary to reconcile ultimate speed with ultimate comfort, ultimate convenience, and ultimate safety. Getting up and down pitches is not a terribly complicated matter, and the advantages of one method over another are in most cases negligible and not worth much deliberation.

 

[cap n chris]

Sludge Pit is one place where a ladder is safer than SRT, there are nasty sharp edges near where the rope hangs.

Mike

It's also probably the easiest free-climbable ladder pitch on Mendip.

Ain't that an oxymoron Cap'n?

Yes it is. Well spotted!

 

[Simon Wilson]

Well, our actual use  of wire ladders is  limited to  very narrow and sqeezy  shafts, where its not possible to use SRT in a propper way. Normally without safety line, as you are also able to use chimney climbing technics...

Ladder technology in GB is interessting to me, maybe somebody could show some old ladders?
In Germany we commonly use ladders of the  P. Allain  type.

At the time when cavers on the continent were developing SRT, in the UK cavers were slower to adopt SRT and were in the final years of taking ladder technology to its high point. The continental ladders that I have seen mostly use ferrules. Ferrules for fixing rungs had been mostly abandoned in the UK in favour of Araldite. The Araldite method is better at reducing corrosion because it is better at excluding moisture, creates electrical insulation between the rung and the wire and minimizess the chance of movement and abrasion of the wire and the rung.

The Pierre Allain method was ferrules inside the rung which might be the most cost effective method but is the worst for corrosion. A ferrule inside the rung cannot be swaged at as high a pressure as a ferrule beside the rung and so the ferrule is not bonded as closely to the wire. I have the greatest respect for Pierre Allain who was responsible for many technological advances in climbing gear - but he didn't make the best ladders.

Commercially made ladders tended to be made at a price whereas ladders made by clubs were made by the cavers who were going to be using them and who were prepared to devote more time to making the safest ladders they could make.

 

[cooleycr]

Pitlamp is of course quite correct when he refers to the "back wall" when climbing in caves/mines, though if one were to fall outdoors whilst attempting an overhang climb, you could end up pretty mashed due to the pendulum effect, whereas in the cave/mine scenario, with a back wall this might be lessened, though obviously would smart somewhat..

Andrewmc mentions bouldering and as everyone knows, there is no life-lining in this popular sport - however, the norm is to use crash mats, I cannot imagine anyone would be stupid enough to attempt this without?

Which brings me back on track - if a fall from 1m is deemed to be enough to cause serious injury, why do we rely on a handline rope to get up and down Idiot's Leap in P8?
It is hardly high enough to warrant SRT, so surely that should be laddered?

 

[Tommy]

Does someone have a picture or diagram of this wire rope walking lark?

I'm struggling to create the image in my minds eye, or at least I'm doubting what I'm imagining.

 

[tony from suffolk]

I remember a device invented many years ago (by someone in the Wessex IIRC) called a "Knobbly Dog" to be used as a handline, a single strand of wire with aluminium rung-type things to act as handholds. Don't think it was very successful though. 

 

[Simon Wilson]

Does someone have a picture or diagram of this wire rope walking lark?

I'm struggling to create the image in my minds eye, or at least I'm doubting what I'm imagining.

It was a wire which was initially one side of a ladder and later specially made wire with ferrules at one foot spacing. The 'blocks' were blocks of aluminium about 25 x 25 x 30mm with a hole to attach a footloop and a slot which slotted over the wire and had a step which engaged over the ferrule.

The adavantages were that it was lightweight and abrasion resistant. Natural belays could be used and it could be used over sharp edges. Some of the disadvantages (as grahams said) were that it was slow to climb in both directions and there was difficulty in getting over bulges. Later heavier guage wire was used and the next development would probably have been to use stainless wire.

The person who was most enthusiatic about it was a pioneering and bold caver who was disappointed that it was not carried on with. He followed the flock in adopting SRT but always said it was a shame that wire technique was not developed further. He was the first person I saw using 9mm rope in SRT.

 

[Wolfo]

Many thanks for your explanation, Simon Wilson 

Wire walking? - I know a lightweight system used by some guys in alpine caving in germany/austria in the 60's.
They had a mono steel cable (4mm) with ferrules at a regular distance (about 30cm/1feet).
"Walking" was done with two short etriers/ladders (called: "fifis") which were attached to slotted steel/aluminium blocks.
These clip-in blocks were designed with a 5mm slot - so its possible to slip them on the 4mm rope - and a pocket at the end of the slott, fitting in the ferrules on the rope.
So you clipped the rope in the slot of the block, pushed it down to the ferrule, stepped up the ladder, pulled the block from the rope and placed it again above you.
Mainly like a cable ladder with mobile rungs.

 

[Fulk]

I heard a story about wire-walking, but I can't vouch for its veracity. Supposedly someone was using the technique but misplaced one of the devices, as a result he started to fall . . . . and, naturally, grabbed the wire. Allegedly he fell only a short distance, but all the time he was trying to cling on to the wire that was covered in ferrules every foot or so. One can only imagine what a mess it must have made.

 

[Roger W]

So, basically like SRT (Single Wire Technique?) but using wire instead of rope and with the "ascenders" gripping the ferrules attached to the wire instead of relying on toothed cams to grip the rope. 

No danger there, then, of a sudden load on the ascender stripping the sheath.  But as for sliding down the wire trying to grip it in your hands... 

 

[Wolfo]

Thereforever the clip-in block had a pocket to fit the ferrule, so once being pushed down on it, being self-locking.