Loss of cave access, CROW and other things

[notdavidgilmour]

Name them.

Naming them is only going to cause more arguments and would not be beneficial to this topic but I'm sure it's a national problem (where there is more than 1 caving club in the area) and not just a regional thing

 

[droid]

RE your penultimate post:
If it's a dig then the club doing the dig usually negotiates access, so I don't see this.

 

[droid]

Name them.

Naming them is only going to cause more arguments and would not be beneficial to this topic but I'm sure it's a national problem (where there is more than 1 caving club in the area) and not just a regional thing

OK.

Name the caves. Say, 3 each in 3 different areas.

 

[mikem]

If you extended your quote of me to include the next line instead of quoting me out of context, you would read that this often leads to many people from various clubs arguing over who 'holds the key'

Doubt that interclub arguments would affect someones decision about whether they would rather negotiate with an individual instead of an organisation.

Mike

 

[notdavidgilmour]

Name them.

Naming them is only going to cause more arguments and would not be beneficial to this topic but I'm sure it's a national problem (where there is more than 1 caving club in the area) and not just a regional thing

OK.

Name the caves. Say, 3 each in 3 different areas.

If I named the caves, anyone with an ounce of intelligence would be able to work out the clubs I'm referring to.  Stop trying to provoke an argument.

 

[notdavidgilmour]

If you extended your quote of me to include the next line instead of quoting me out of context, you would read that this often leads to many people from various clubs arguing over who 'holds the key'

Doubt that interclub arguments would affect someones decision about whether they would rather negotiate with an individual instead of an organisation.

Mike

Possibly not Mike, that's just my opinion and not necessarily the correct one.  It may however put them off the idea of anyone going underground on their land.

 

[mikem]

We are stuck with much the same problems in the canoeing world, but have managed to get ourselves specifically excluded from CRoW (despite being included in the Scottish Access legislation) and being in the far worse situation of having to negotiate with numerous landowners alongside rivers, rather than just the one where we access the river...

Mike

 

[graham]

If I owned land upon which a cave or mine was situated, I would feel more comfortable negotiating access with a recognised body (BCA / CCC etc.) who acted for all cavers in the region rather than one person within a caving club.

And that, of course is your prerogative, however, there are many landowners, both individual and personal, who prefer to negotiate with someone they have built a relationship with rather than with a body whose access officer may change at any time.

 

[Ian Adams]

No doubt that is true of the here and now.  The original suggestion was of a much simpler model of extending CROW to cover entering caves ? not overlording private land arrangements which seems to be at the far end of the spectrum.

I also agree with NotDavidGilmour that naming clubs and caves would be inflammatory. I am quite sure we can all think of a number of contentious access problems regardless of which side of the fence we are sat on.

Ian

 

[droid]

  Stop trying to provoke an argument.

I'm not trying to provoke an argument, I'm trying to get you to provide some evidence for your assertion: 'But many cavers / clubs are negotiating access and being obstructive when approached by other cavers / clubs who may also want to see what's inside.'

 

[mikem]

Unless the landowner has blocked the entrance, then generally the only thing stopping you accessing caves on CRoW land is...other cavers.

Mike

 

[cap n chris]

If I owned land upon which a cave or mine was situated, I would feel more comfortable negotiating access with a recognised body (BCA / CCC etc.) who acted for all cavers in the region rather than one person within a caving club.

I wouldn't.

I think being approached by a spokesperson from each of the possible numerous clubs which may be in the area would be enough for me to say "right, I don't want anyone going in"

I would be far happier knowing someone in each club with whom I had established a relationship and as a result more amenable to the idea of granting access.

I know of many caves where the landowner gets approached routinely by people seeking access and they deal with it on a case-by-case basis rather than delegating to a faceless organisation and thereby having no say over any problems with the ongoing situation other than rescinding access with a blanket ban.

 

[notdavidgilmour]

  Stop trying to provoke an argument.

I'm not trying to provoke an argument, I'm trying to get you to provide some evidence for your assertion: 'But many cavers / clubs are negotiating access and being obstructive when approached by other cavers / clubs who may also want to see what's inside.'

I'm sure you are aware of instances where this has happened Droid!

 

[droid]

Not 'many'.....

 

[NewStuff]

Wow, there's some serious Empire Building and Old Boys Club worship going on in here.

A reasonable question about the possibility of extending the CROW gets comments deleted, people banned and direct insults? the word "Fucknuggets" was invented for idiots that act like that.

As for naming names... there's a lot of issues in N.Wales, (GCC and NWCC, I'm looking at you). I'll name names, no bother to me, and it wouldn't be an issue if they had a reasonable access policy for people who are competent.

Banned in 3... 2... 1...

 

[Rhys]

Wow, there's some serious Empire Building and Old Boys Club worship going on in here.

Not sure what you mean by that!

A reasonable question about the possibility of extending the CROW gets comments deleted, people banned and direct insults? the word "Fucknuggets" was invented for idiots that act like that.

Nobody's been banned.

Banned in 3... 2... 1...

You'll have to try harder than that!

 

[NewStuff]

Wow, there's some serious Empire Building and Old Boys Club worship going on in here.

Not sure what you mean by that!

I suspect you know perfectly well what I mean. If not, I suggest You look in a dictionary. They're the rather large books that reside in a library, lots of words, not many pictures.

A reasonable question about the possibility of extending the CROW gets comments deleted, people banned and direct insults? the word "Fucknuggets" was invented for idiots that act like that.

Nobody's been banned.

Bullshit. I know at least one.

Banned in 3... 2... 1...

You'll have to try harder than that!

I'm not trying, just the likely course of events given the course of this thread, and the one it was split from.

PS, your quote embedding and preview system... it needs work...

 

[droid]

Get back into my mine and take my pictures. :tease:

If you aren't the 'Newstuff' on AditNow that won't make much sense, will it?

 

[NewStuff]

Get back into my mine and take my pictures. :tease:

If you aren't the 'Newstuff' on AditNow that won't make much sense, will it?

That's me. One of the reason I get all uppity with this kind of issue, is that due to access politics, I can't publish a lot of my pictures.

It's a joke, and one that I will do my utmost to help Exploration of mines (and caves), be rid of.

 

[droid]

I can only speak about Derbyshire here, but some mines do have 'special interest' groups that control access, often by gates.

Don't know of a group that's not amenable to taking others down 'their' mine though.

The only real problem is when jokers start publishing photos from mines where access is denied to all-comers. Doesn't help anybody get proper access then.