Maillons, WHY?

[potholer]

Our club uses Screw gate Krabs almost exclusively for rigging, there are large strings of maillons sitting in our gear store that simply don't get used due to there fiddly nature and the necessity to carry a spanner.

What necessity to carry a spanner?

I'm certainly not obsessive about maintenance, but excluding maillons used in long-term fixed rigging, I can't remember having the need to use a spanner underground to release maillons or adequately do them up.

If they're meaningfully hard to open/close, I either fettle them or throw them away, rather than using them on a trip.
Carrying a spanner would mean I hadn't really been keeping up even with my level of gear checking.

And personally, I find half-decent maillons don't seem hugely different from crabs in terms of rigging speed - it seems to be somewhat a case of swings and roundabouts.

 

[ALEXW]

I had a struggle on  Rowton Gully Route when the millions had been rained on then frozen. A spanner would have been good then.. I used a spare maillon as a spanner to get some open as my hands were too cold to grip

 

[Blakethwaite]

I had a struggle on  Rowton Gully Route when the millions had been rained on then frozen. A spanner would have been good then.. I used a spare maillon as a spanner to get some open as my hands were too cold to grip

Another plus for maillons? Not sure I'd fancy trying to use a screwgate to free another  screwgate.

 

[Mike Hopley]

I'm certainly not obsessive about maintenance, but excluding maillons used in long-term fixed rigging, I can't remember having the need to use a spanner underground to release maillons or adequately do them up.

Agreed, I have never needed a spanner for any of my maillons, except some left outside for years on a tree. The rest are buttery smooth.

If I'm using someone else's maillons, and especially club maillons, it can be a different story.

I have mainly used a spanner for hangers, not maillons (which is where a ratcheting spanner can be nice). Hangers get loose pretty often on trade routes.

Another plus for maillons? Not sure I'd fancy trying to use a screwgate to free another  screwgate.

True, although the usual way to free a screwgate is just to put your weight on it again.

 

[potholer]

Another plus for maillons? Not sure I'd fancy trying to use a screwgate to free another  screwgate.

True, although the usual way to free a screwgate is just to put your weight on it again.

Yes, if they're the kind with a 'binding' screw barrel and have bound up under load, but for a wet-then-frozen screw barrel?

Oh, for a smoker with a turbo lighter...

 

[Mike Hopley]

Yes, if they're the kind with a 'binding' screw barrel and have bound up under load, but for a wet-then-frozen screw barrel?

Ah, yes. Much trickier.

Um...

Wee on it? Might be difficult depending on how high up it is. You could have a competition.

 

[ah147]

Wet then frozen problems?

In 7 years of alpine winter climbing, 8 years of alpine climbing and 9 years of Scottish winter climbing, I'm yet to experience this. Despite multiple hanging bivis and early morning starts.

I'm sure it can happen. Im sure it's easily remedied with a bit of body heat/gentle tapping.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Blakethwaite]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned above, but maillons become particularly useful when connected in a chain if you need to extend an anchor around a corner or across a rub point etc and for some reason a sling or tat isn't available or an appropriate option. I use screwgates and maillons depending on circumstances & availablity but of the two I'd always prefer maillons as the better choice as they have a versatility that krabs simply do not.

 

[paul]

if I forget to do one up it loses no strength at all, etc etc etc

Unless it gets knocked against rock causing the gate to open momentarily.

If it's getting knocked against a rock it's either loaded, in which case it's not coming off the bolt.

Or completely unloaded, which means I'm not dying.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think the point is that if there was a fall, and the carabiner was knocked, the gate would momentarily open meaning that the carabiner would be at its weakest strength (with the gate open). The knock causing the gate to open could be at the point of impact at the end of the fall, just when you want the carabiner to be at its strongest.

This is why screwgates were invented: they don't make the carabiner any stronger, but the screwed sleeve ensures the gate cannot be accidentally opened, especially if the carabiner is knocked during a fall but also while the carabiner is being moved around while clipped to something.

 

[Mike Hopley]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned above, but maillons become particularly useful when connected in a chain if you need to extend an anchor around a corner or across a rub point etc and for some reason a sling or tat isn't available or an appropriate option.

That's a good point, easily forgotten.

Often extending an anchor with a sling or bit of tat is not even safe, because there will be too much rub and anchor failure may have bad consequences. For short extensions a chain of maillons would work, whereas a chain of carabiners would be unsafe.

For longer extensions it's impractical, and a wire trace is needed (yuck).

Or even better, use 5 mm Dyneema cord for a sling. This can go directly over a rub point with almost no wear. Dyneema is even more versatile than maillons. Rig deviations, natural anchors, extend over rub points, you name it. One cord to rule them all.

Not cheap though.

 

[Madness]

if I forget to do one up it loses no strength at all, etc etc etc

Unless it gets knocked against rock causing the gate to open momentarily.

If it's getting knocked against a rock it's either loaded, in which case it's not coming off the bolt.

Or completely unloaded, which means I'm not dying.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think the point is that if there was a fall, and the carabiner was knocked, the gate would momentarily open meaning that the carabiner would be at its weakest strength (with the gate open). The knock causing the gate to open could be at the point of impact at the end of the fall, just when you want the carabiner to be at its strongest.

This is why screwgates were invented: they don't make the carabiner any stronger, but the screwed sleeve ensures the gate cannot be accidentally opened, especially if the carabiner is knocked during a fall but also while the carabiner is being moved around while clipped to something.

That's exactly what I was hinting at.

Considering a typical lightweight Krab has a gate open strength of about 7kN, it suspect a bit of clumsy bouncing (by a 'fat lad') during ascent or descent would put you fairly close to failure loading.

It'd be interesting to test in a safe environment how much bounce would be needed to deform a 'gate open' krab.

I think that forgetting to screw up a krab is more likely to happen than forgetting to screw up a maillon.

My philosophy when it comes to climbing/caving is to have a varied selection of gear available and use the most appropriate for a given situation, based on experience of course. If you only carry a certain type/size of gear you're limiting your options.

 

[ah147]

if I forget to do one up it loses no strength at all, etc etc etc

Unless it gets knocked against rock causing the gate to open momentarily.

If it's getting knocked against a rock it's either loaded, in which case it's not coming off the bolt.

Or completely unloaded, which means I'm not dying.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think the point is that if there was a fall, and the carabiner was knocked, the gate would momentarily open meaning that the carabiner would be at its weakest strength (with the gate open). The knock causing the gate to open could be at the point of impact at the end of the fall, just when you want the carabiner to be at its strongest.

This is why screwgates were invented: they don't make the carabiner any stronger, but the screwed sleeve ensures the gate cannot be accidentally opened, especially if the carabiner is knocked during a fall but also while the carabiner is being moved around while clipped to something.

That's exactly what I was hinting at.

Considering a typical lightweight Krab has a gate open strength of about 7kN, it suspect a bit of clumsy bouncing (by a 'fat lad') during ascent or descent would put you fairly close to failure loading.

It'd be interesting to test in a safe environment how much bounce would be needed to deform a 'gate open' krab.

I think that forgetting to screw up a krab is more likely to happen than forgetting to screw up a maillon.

My philosophy when it comes to climbing/caving is to have a varied selection of gear available and use the most appropriate for a given situation, based on experience of course. If you only carry a certain type/size of gear you're limiting your options.

Fairly high, quick, cyclic motions.

It's common in climbing during leader falls. It's one of the advantages in wire gate biners. Less mass=less to swing open.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Amy]

Smaller, more compact, don't rotate eaisly to cross load or have a rollout failure (something that HAS killed cavers, Petzl was sued even at one time for it). Carabiners are great when you need something movable and quick. A properly seated and orientated  mallion is stable and reliable without getting kerjangled and is still removable in a pinch (I carry a small wrench on my system, my connections are never opened or closed during normal use but I do check them each time I get on rope). The connections are solid and "permanent" on my system and the mallions simply allow me to Be able to detach from anything I need to if I need to. Otherwise my connections are tied in.  but I don't want a loose jangly sloppy connection that is just asking for trouble impo.

Here is a video that shows what a lot of cavers call cross loaded but really it's rollout failure (note - the new ansi ratings they do make carabiners to combat this rollout because it is a huge industry problem, however, I haven't seen a new ansii carabiner that would be good in muddy cave world)We teach 3-4 classes a year of 20 ish students basic SRT and I have lost count how many come down the practice bluff with jacked up carabiners. Until we made this video and show it every class. Now they pay attention. Carabiners are fine when used properly but they are easy to load wrong even for experienced people. All it takes is that one time you didn't pay close enough attention.

And please don't give me flack for saying carabiners aren't safe as I never said that. I simply say that in sport caving when things are getting mushed in tight pitches, awkward angles, weighted and unweighted constantly....mallions are designed to hold orientation and awkward loads better. I can't always see my connections. I don't want to have to worry that something isn't loading right. Carabiners used in proper orientation and manners are perfectly safe. But even experience people can't always confirm how their own gear looks when you get in that tight pitch...
http://youtu.be/bORGftMmGV4

 

[JasonC]

Hmmm... quite unsettling - never seen that before.
I think the OP was referring to krabs vs maillons in rigging, but that's interesting too !

 

[cavemanmike]

anyone know what that guy has got on his chest

 

[Mike Hopley]

Here is a video that shows what a lot of cavers call cross loaded but really it's rollout failure

This is one reason that it's good practice to get your weight onto the descender and check its loading before removing your last cowstail. Although this type of failure should be much less likely with a bobbin descender than a rack, it's still theoretically possible.

And for a bobbin descender, the manufacturers forbid connecting with a maillon, due to the hazard of the maillon opening the descender gate.

But yeah, the topic here is about rigging with carabiners vs maillons.

anyone know what that guy has got on his chest

It's an American-style chest roller, designed to hold you in close to the rope so that you can rope-walk more efficiently.

Specifically, it looks like a PMI single roller.

 

[me]

Thank you Amy, I like the video, goes to show how easy it is to happen.

due to the hazard of the maillon opening the descender gate

Anyone got a video of this happening?

 

[Amy]

Oh sorry, I did read the first page of the thread and I never saw it was in regards to rigging only!

Yes, it is chest roller (double, actually, but yes), it's for an American style ropewalker.

I thought for bobbin style descenders a braking crab is standard SOP?

Yeah our go-to is carabiners for rigging here (or even follow-throughs if doing a tensionless, don't even need any hard gear!). The exception being pulldowns, in which case most bolts have mallions left in them.

 

[potholer]

Thank you Amy, I like the video, goes to show how easy it is to happen.

due to the hazard of the maillon opening the descender gate

Anyone got a video of this happening?

With a [traditional] long 10mm maillon it's fairly easy to recreate if you manipulate the maillon and descender directly (though also possible with some crabs, if less easily).

However, as anyone who has tried it will see, in a real-life wearing-a-harness/central maillon/10mm maillon/descender arrangement, trying to do it by just manipulating the descender is far more difficult, even with fairly contrived descender movements, due to the 10mm maillon being much freer to move.

 

[caving_fox]

I like inspected mailons. Check - Before the trip - that they all open smoothly and you're good to go. Sometimes even brand new ones can be slightly sticky. One of my mates used to stand at Bernies' counter and check each mailon before he bought it, rejecting the odd one that didn't open smoothly enough for his taste. If you haven't loaded them with the gate slightly open :read: they'll then be perfect for years. A very light oiling after washing on the worst wet/muddy trips helps keep them so.

Club does have a selection of almost unusably tough ones though, and then I'd much prefer a krab.