Modifications in Wretched Rabbit
- Thread starter Badlad
- Start date
It is possible to climb them all without rope, I tried once many years ago (when I was young and full of energy), hard work as you get higher up the climbs but doable (and I'm definitely not a rock rat). If removal of rope was a reason then the first rope (as you exit) shouldn't have been there in the first place as that's the really easy one..Alex said:
Please do not try and put an upside to this and justify the actions of self-centred vandals.
tobyk
Member
Above ground chipping holds on climbs went out of date in the 1800s. As a classic caving route, this is akin to chipping a way up a classic rock climb e.g. little Chamonix, or a hard move on a classic scramble e.g. pinnacle ridge St Sunday crag.
Are the missing pieces likely to still be there and can simple be stuck back on? Or do you think they have been blown into a hundred pieces?
Maybe an idea, which would require work, but could a pamphlet be put together by the BCA or CNCC of ?how to behave in caves? and if you want to make modifications these should be justified first and go through an appropriate channel. The pamphlet could be sent out with the BCA insurance card each year as a reminder.
Are the missing pieces likely to still be there and can simple be stuck back on? Or do you think they have been blown into a hundred pieces?
Maybe an idea, which would require work, but could a pamphlet be put together by the BCA or CNCC of ?how to behave in caves? and if you want to make modifications these should be justified first and go through an appropriate channel. The pamphlet could be sent out with the BCA insurance card each year as a reminder.
cap n chris
Well-known member
tobyk said:
Nice sentiment, but we can safely conclude that it is foolish to continue presuming that C21st cavers (i.e. members of the public) are aware of the existence of regional caving councils, national body, this website etc.. BCA already has a Conservation Code, an Ethical Caving Code, the Minimal Impact Caving leaflet, a credit-card sized conservation list, the excellent EUSS conservation poster, a thick volume of Caving Conservation reference material (harking back to NCA days) etc., etc.. More of the same failed* prescription is a fool's paradise.
Putting signs in caves, just beyond the limit of daylight penetration (i.e. somewhere that only someone who is caving can reach if they are equipped with a light source for personal navigation) has been mentioned to at least one RC and the BCA (at C&A level), and here, more times than I can remember yet in this country it is a topic which seems to elicit an irrational disdain from certain quarters, despite it being standard practice in much of Europe: such signs can convey, using icons so there is no language barrier, acceptable standards of behaviour. WhyTF we don't have them in the UK is a mystery, especially as there are memorial plaques, rescue organisation info-signs, and roadsigns littering numerous classic caves around and about, so the precedent already exists.
Many years ago it was even offered for some signs (based on European example) to be made up and installed FOC but the usual predictable shit storm threatened to wash in so I didn't bother with it any further. That was at RCC/BCA level, please note.
* GG graffiti, HLIS/Swildon's Hole vandalism, WR, L/E, KMC etc., to name but a handful of recent examples, all prove these documents did not reach their target. The list will continue to grow so get used to it.
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
AR said:
I would not place much reliance on the law surrounding SSSIs if I were you. Yes section 28P of the 1981 Wildlife & Countryside Act makes it a criminal offence for any other person who without reasonable excuse, intentionally or recklessly destroys or damages any of the geological or physiographical features by reason of which land is of special interest.
The Leck Beck Head Catchment Area SSSI citation states: "The caves exhibit a wide range of features of interest, including a number of passages which lie well above the present water table. ... The scale and variety of the caves makes this a most important site for the study of surface and underground landform development over a long period of the recent past." see https://designatedsites.naturalengland.org.uk/PDFsForWeb/Citation/1001420.pdf.
The statement of Operations requiring Natural England's consent include: "Recreational, educational or other activities likely to damage features of interest." see https://designatedsites.naturalengland.org.uk/PDFsForWeb/Consent/1001420.pdf.
I suggest features of interest only focuses on "underground landform development" since it makes no other reference to "wide range of features of interest". So do you really think creating a few steps is damaging the "underground landform development"? I fear a reasonable defence lawyer could make hay with the vagueness of the citation.
Also please note that section 28E prohibits the land owner from permitting any operation prohibited by the SSSI to be carried out and section 28P makes that a criminal offence. Given that, should the land owner place more restrictions on access to protect themselves?
Let me emphasise that I do not condone what has been done; it is just that I fear appeals to law are of no value and could disastrously rebound on access.
2xw
Active member
It'd be an interesting thing to research Bob - most of them do not go to court and will not end up being defended as they are civil sanctions. Natural England has successfully pursued hundreds of individuals in this way in the past including for mineral extraction, geological collection etc, and if they can get you for churning up mud with a vehicle, rearing pheasants or incorrectly storing manure, they can certainly give stop notices and enforcement undertakings for blowing up bits of rock or inserting bits of metal.
The argument that "ooo err it might affect access" is not an excuse for folks to cover up or deny criminal activity.
Besides that fact, its a shit argument: I've always found NE very helpful and willing to give out SSSI consents for activities including rock removal, and remember that part of Natural Englands remit is to help people access, understand and enjoy the natural environment. Bear in mind they also have employees that sit on the BCA council (for the moment) and you'll understand why I find this ignorance of our national bodies particularly jarring.
The argument that "ooo err it might affect access" is not an excuse for folks to cover up or deny criminal activity.
Besides that fact, its a shit argument: I've always found NE very helpful and willing to give out SSSI consents for activities including rock removal, and remember that part of Natural Englands remit is to help people access, understand and enjoy the natural environment. Bear in mind they also have employees that sit on the BCA council (for the moment) and you'll understand why I find this ignorance of our national bodies particularly jarring.
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
Cap'n Chris said:
They exist at the entrance of most major Welsh caves? (OFD, Daren, Aggy?)
My money would still be on club cavers (or ex-club cavers), not just 'members of the public' (which I presume means non-BCA members, as we are all members of the public). All the evidence I've ever heard suggests the majority of active cavers are BCA members (albeit this is hard to prove), and the vast majority (something like 5/6ths?) of BCA members are club members. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the DIMs are in a club as well; I'm in four clubs and still a DIM (you have to be to be in the BCRA, for example). Joint with another DIM who is a member of two clubs.
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
tobyk suggested a leaflet be pushed out by BCA to all members on 'how to behave in caves'. CNCC has a leaflet, see https://cncc.org.uk/digging but it is focused on digging & SSSIs. Although Cap'n Chris makes a point about their ineffectiveness he does highlight other resources which could be used. And of course, the message need not be restrained to just a leaflet.
However, the message needs an outline of the ideas it should cover. My initial thought was creating a message focusing on 'modifying caves', be it adding aids or making holds. I am unsure quite what 'how to behave in caves' could cover. But ideas like don't touch stall, keep between tape come to mind.
With a set of ideas for content, drafting the message should not be too difficult. It could then be worked up into a message to be sent out to all clubs to forward onto members and also to magazines etc as well as a leaflet for use in various locations. It could also be turned into a poster for display in club huts and caving shops. And perhaps other devices for getting the message across?
So what ideas are there for the content of such a message?
Mods - Should this be a new thread?
However, the message needs an outline of the ideas it should cover. My initial thought was creating a message focusing on 'modifying caves', be it adding aids or making holds. I am unsure quite what 'how to behave in caves' could cover. But ideas like don't touch stall, keep between tape come to mind.
With a set of ideas for content, drafting the message should not be too difficult. It could then be worked up into a message to be sent out to all clubs to forward onto members and also to magazines etc as well as a leaflet for use in various locations. It could also be turned into a poster for display in club huts and caving shops. And perhaps other devices for getting the message across?
So what ideas are there for the content of such a message?
Mods - Should this be a new thread?
PeteHall
Moderator
It is my personal opinion (a dangerous thing, I know) that anyone with the appropriate kit and experience to have capped these footholds knew perfectly well what they were doing and that it was against any kind of acceptable caving conduct.
"Capping" is an "advanced" digging technique, it is inconceivable to me, that a "member of the public" would come up with this exact same technique off their own back to cut footholds into a cave (that already has an in-situ rope).
For this reason, I cannot imagine that any form of sign or leaflet would help. If someone chooses to vandalise a cave in this way, a sign is unlikely to stop them.
A 30mph speed limit is well sign-posted and drivers need to undergo training and pass a test to drive on the road, however, people still choose to ignore them for personal convenience. Why do we think that a sign in a cave would be any more effective?
"Capping" is an "advanced" digging technique, it is inconceivable to me, that a "member of the public" would come up with this exact same technique off their own back to cut footholds into a cave (that already has an in-situ rope).
For this reason, I cannot imagine that any form of sign or leaflet would help. If someone chooses to vandalise a cave in this way, a sign is unlikely to stop them.
A 30mph speed limit is well sign-posted and drivers need to undergo training and pass a test to drive on the road, however, people still choose to ignore them for personal convenience. Why do we think that a sign in a cave would be any more effective?
TheBitterEnd
Well-known member
I think Pete Hall is spot on and I wonder if more clutter in caves by way of notices, etc. would have the opposite effect, i.e. the less ?pristine? the environment seems the more some people will think it is OK to add their own modifications?
It seems to me that the place to start is to calmly and gently ask the step installers and cappers why they thought it was OK to take unilateral action; did they consider asking others; did they know who they might consult about their plans; did they recognise that they were irrevocably damaging a SSSI, etc. Knowing the motivation might help to inform how best to educate people.
It seems to me that the place to start is to calmly and gently ask the step installers and cappers why they thought it was OK to take unilateral action; did they consider asking others; did they know who they might consult about their plans; did they recognise that they were irrevocably damaging a SSSI, etc. Knowing the motivation might help to inform how best to educate people.
cap n chris
Well-known member
TheBitterEnd said:
Good luck with that.
kay
Well-known member
Bob Mehew said:
BCA New Caving Code and Minimal Impact Caving Guidelines are available for download from http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=conservation_access:news
They don't specifically cover adding aids or making holds, but no-one reading them could be left in any doubt that one should at least have a hard think before undertaking such activities.
GarDouth
Administrator
The Minimal Impact Caving Guidelines are also available in web page form here: https://cncc.org.uk/conservation/caving-guidelines.php
There is also a page on digging on SSSI's: https://cncc.org.uk/conservation/digging.php
Plus lots of other conservation information.
There is also a page on digging on SSSI's: https://cncc.org.uk/conservation/digging.php
Plus lots of other conservation information.
have realised why I never post on forums - it never quite comes out right
anyway just for future clarification - by fixed rope (which I hate) I meant those particular ropes - not the presence of fixed ropes in general. much preferred the previous knotted ropes in WR.
anyway just mentioning in case someone decides to point this out next time I'm being thankful there is a fixed rope somewhere
anyway just for future clarification - by fixed rope (which I hate) I meant those particular ropes - not the presence of fixed ropes in general. much preferred the previous knotted ropes in WR.
anyway just mentioning in case someone decides to point this out next time I'm being thankful there is a fixed rope somewhere
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Like a number of fellow cavers who have expressed displeasure over this issue, I also find it difficult to think of any legitimate justification.
But . . . just put yourself in the mind of the person who did it. The more vitriolic the posts in this topic the more difficult it would be for them to come forward and engage in meaningful discussion. The latter is probably the best way to persuade folk to go about things differently in future. I think that's really what Badlad had in mind, in his well written original post above.
I don't think anything written so far is particularly distasteful but some of it might be a bit off-putting. Give the bloke or lass a chance - I'm sure common sense will then eventually prevail.
But . . . just put yourself in the mind of the person who did it. The more vitriolic the posts in this topic the more difficult it would be for them to come forward and engage in meaningful discussion. The latter is probably the best way to persuade folk to go about things differently in future. I think that's really what Badlad had in mind, in his well written original post above.
I don't think anything written so far is particularly distasteful but some of it might be a bit off-putting. Give the bloke or lass a chance - I'm sure common sense will then eventually prevail.
If you condemn a person/group entirely and not allow any discussion, the usual reaction is for them to go "f**k it, i will do whatever the hell i want". This usually leads to more bolting/capping as in reality you can't stop them.
Just look at any bolting thread on climbing forums in the past 20 years.
Just look at any bolting thread on climbing forums in the past 20 years.
