Moss Chamber (again)

[Mark-Cal]

I had my first trip into Moss Chamber yesterday, I think I may have passed a few of the forum members in the Upper Gallery carrying some rather large bits of RSJ destined to hold up the roof beyond Ink Sump. I couldn't help but notice by the way that the women were making less heavy work of the carrying than the men.... :

Anyway, I really enjoyed the trip to Moss Chamber, the mud slope especially, even though I made the squeeze through the eyehole on the way in much harder work than it needed to be.

It was worth the effort though, I was impressed by the cave especially the nice pretties, and it was sobering to see the tube where Neil lost his fight for life.

But it made me wonder if any thought has ever been given to what lies beyond where Neil is interred.
I realise that the wishes of Neil's parents were taken into account at the time and although it was nearly fifty years ago there are still people involved in caving who took part in the attempted rescue, but with cavers being cavers will there come a time where the wish to leave Neil's grave undisturbed be outweighed by the curiosity of what lies beyond?

I guess Peak Cavern isn't exactly short of potential for further exploration in other places but eventually will there come a time when removing Neil's remains is seriously looked at?

Or has modern surveying shown it's unlikely have any potential to go anywhere?

Wouldn't it be a fitting end to the story if it turns out there's something special beyond that tube?

 

[bubba]

Personally i hope that day never comes - i'd rather somebody's grave was left undisturbed and what lies beyond stays secret.

 

[graham]

Never is an awful long time, Bubba.

 

[toni]

I had my first trip into Moss Chamber yesterday, I think I may have passed a few of the forum members in the Upper Gallery carrying some rather large bits of RSJ destined to hold up the roof beyond Ink Sump. I couldn't help but notice by the way that the women were making less heavy work of the carrying than the men.... :

mmm... The answer is 'yes', they were indeed very heavy (25kg I'm told, maximum weight for manual handling!  :blink: ) Got them to the bottom of Surprise View. Very awkward to manoeuvre through the boulders... So friendly of you all to offer to help!  :ras:

As for young Mr Moss, lets leave him be... I'm sure that in the scheme of things never knowing what is beyond is far more worthy of his memory than knowing...

 

[Mark-Cal]

Fair enough, I can understand the sentiment, but there have been many other examples of graves, infact whole graveyards being moved for no other reason than needing the land for something deemed more important.

Digging up of WW2 aircraft wrecks for example happens all the time and the remains of the crew removed and given "proper" burials in consecrated ground, when perhaps many people would prefer them to be left alone.
I just wondered, as someone relatively new to caving how cavers felt about Neil's resting place.

Got them to the bottom of Surprise View. Very awkward to manoeuvre through the boulders... So friendly of you all to offer to help!  :ras:

We did offer to help Toni, but our offer was declined (phew! ). I was a little worried though as I climbed the ladder back up to Surprise View I might meet one of the RSJ's heading in the opposite direction! 

 

[AndyF]

There gazillions of godd places to dig in the peaks in general, it wont run out in my or anyone elses lifetimes. To loose just one location as a grave seems no great tradgedy. I'd say let him be in peace, removing what remains would jsut be an unsavoury episode IMHO.

Look what happened to Floyd Collins....

 

[Peter Burgess]

While he has surviving relatives, perhaps their views on the matter should be paramount. Assuming they would rather have the mortal remains left in peace, then as there is no over-riding need to disturb them, then just let it be. To take a clinical view on this subject ignores the emotional affect that even discussing this might have on those who were closest to him. I do not know if members of his immediate family are alive, but even if they are not, then there are probably surviving friends and colleagues. Some people may think the remains are no more than inanimate bones, but this ignores a whole raft of other human factors. It is a very difficult thing to put oneself in the place of someone who may have been affected by Neil's death, but I think if I wanted to visit and pay my respects to someone I once knew in whatever capacity, I can't think of a better place than in the last cave he explored, and where he still remains.

 

[toni]

We did offer to help Toni, but our offer was declined (phew! ). I was a little worried though as I climbed the ladder back up to Surprise View I might meet one of the RSJ's heading in the opposite direction! 

DECLINED... Who by? If it was Jim he owes me more than a bloody stew 

We took 7 of those things to the View! We did shout "BELOW" when chucking them over, so as not to surprise anyone.

Only joking, we shouted "CATCH", no really it was all done very safely  :blink:

It was 'ard work though. Maybe you could insist on helping to take them to Ink Sump 

 

[DARBY]

I have often thought the same thing that there may be something below him,but if you look at where he is in relation to everything else would it be worth destroying a grave of what now has become caving legend not only to cavers but to tourists who visit the area. I also think Neils resting place is a tribute and a sobering reminder to us all that now and again things can go horribly wrong. This place should now be left undisturbed out of respect not only for  Neil and is Remaining family if any but as a memorial to the Cavers who were there that day, some of whom are still alive and are well respected within the sport. These people were at the top of the game and one or two still are and they could not help him is that not a clear enough message. This is a Neils resting place and should be left well alone.

 

[graham]

Look what happened to Floyd Collins....

Collins' body was messed about with only because it was intentionally interred in FCCC after it was removed from Sand Cave. Had he had a proper funeral first time around, after his body was recovered, then that would never have happened.

There is no parallel with Moss's situation. Closer is the situation in Mossdale.

 

[paul]

I have often thought the same thing that there may be something below him,but if you look at where he is in relation to everything else would it be worth destroying a grave of what now has become caving legend not only to cavers but to tourists who visit the area. I also think Neils resting place is a tribute and a sobering reminder to us all that now and again things can go horribly wrong. This place should now be left undisturbed out of respect not only for  Neil and is Remaining family if any but as a memorial to the Cavers who were there that day, some of whom are still alive and are well respected within the sport. These people were at the top of the game and one or two still are and they could not help him is that not a clear enough message. This is a Neils resting place and should be left well alone.

Well said.

To new cavers, to whom the original question was posed, it may seem that the tragic event happened in the dim and distant past.

I have friends, still active cavers, who were on the rescue attempt (a fellow club member was awarded the George Medal after the rescue attempt)  - and one of them actually introduced Neil to caving.


Eric Moss, Neil's father, asked that his son's body be left where it was. We should respect his wishes.

 

[dunc]

I can't see how anyone would want to disturb a grave in the hope there 'might' be something worth finding, even in the future. Theres plenty of other places (not that I'm overly familiar with Peak Cavern) to dig in there anyway.

There is no parallel with Moss's situation. Closer is the situation in Mossdale.

I would guess any visitors to Mossdale (not that it gets many!) generally avoid the grave site and, as the Peak example above, if they did choose to dig in Mossdale they would do so elsewhere in the system..

 

[nickwilliams]

I also think Neils resting place is a tribute and a sobering reminder to us all that now and again things can go horribly wrong.

It was not that long ago that a senior member of DCRO said to me that he was far from certain that the outcome of the attempt to rescue Neil would be any different if it happened today. To argue whether or not this is infact the case misses the point - it behoves us all to remember that sometimes there is a price to pay for doing what we love.

Neil should be left well alone.

Nick.

 

[paul]

I've posted this quote before, but perhaps it is worth repeating it:

"For the young man who died in Peak Cavern, there must be mourning,
but there can be a sense of pride in him too. Those who will risk
danger, whether in caves, on mountains or at sea must sometimes have to
pay the full price they have pledged. It could not be otherwise.

The adventurous cannot guard against all risks without reducing
adventure to make-believe. The death that came in the darkness at
Peak cavern is pitiful, but it is good that there are those who
for youth or adventure or a cause are willing to risk such an
end. It is in this that the honour of being Human exists."

"Manchester Guardian" 25th March 1959
Probably written by Patrick Monkhouse

 

[Mark]

I can't see how anyone would want to disturb a grave in the hope there 'might' be something worth finding,

Howard Carter springs to mind

I reckon leave Mr Moss alone.

 

[dunc]

Howard Carter springs to mind

True, the main difference being a few thousand years though, or however old it was..