New BCA Secretary

[2xw]

You may "sort things out locally" but bear in mind the CSCC doesn't magic it's money out of some dig somewhere.

You can see your membership fee at work every time you see a nice shiny CSCC padlock, or go through the entrances to Hunters Lodge or Loxton.

The CSCC put a lot of effort into those access agreements and conservation works so you can "just go caving" without ever having to think about it.

It may bore your pants off (it's bores the people on council too!) and it may not publicise what it does very well, but to claim the BCA isn't relevant to your caving is somewhat strange.

I know if I divide my yearly fee by the amount of bolts and gates I've used it works out pretty good value for money.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Some gates and locks are paid for by a conservation fee when a trip goes down the cave. In our digs we supply our own such things. I don't want to generate even more argument here I am just putting my own perception which as has been suggested might be totally erroneous.

Perhaps its a case of " What have the Romans done for us " for those that remember the film.

 

[Russell Myers]

I think is the first time I have actually seen the CV of anybody in BCA so Russell Myers is to be commended for that.  Also posting his photo means we know what he looks like and can meet and speak to him at events if we should so wish.  The problem we have at present is that there isn't a national printed magazine representing BCA so getting CV's out to the wider audience is practically impossible except through social media which not everybody uses. The BSAC has SCUBA magazine (currently online because of the pandemic) and this acts a mouthpiece for the national club.  i don't think the situation will change as diving magazines rely on adventising expensive holidays and equipment and cavers are notoriously tight fisted (my friend Pete only bought an oversuit ten years ago, has a cheap chinese mining lamp because his Nife cell finally gave out and grumbles that caving should be a cheap sport).

Thanks for the kind words Modroc; I was wondering what mark I may leave in my first 100 days in office, putting my identity and cv out there, looks like I've achieved it already in a week! What next?

 

[Russell Myers]

Right. I am telling Pete that you have been slagging him off. It's a funny thing with BCA. In 55 years caving I have had no connection, knowledge or even interest in it. It's like having to belong to something just so that you have some sort of insurance. ( would not my own personal PL insurance suffice? ). I lob out the money each year because its tied up in my club subs. To be honest what I call caving politics bores the pants off me. I just have no time for any of it. We sort things out locally and just go caving. I could never be bothered to read stuff from BCA unless it had a direct caving interest. Certainly I would never vote for anything involving BCA. Please don't read this wrong. This is not a criticism of BCA or what it does. To me it just seems things would be much the same whether it ceased to exist at all. I guess this is all my fault and I only mention it at all because I wonder how many other cavers feel the same. I doubt that whatever the BCA says or does would make me feel any different. This is my personal view so please don't get the idea I don't like BCA. It's just that to me it has no relevance whatsoever and really that's my problem. Reaching out ( as they say ) to somebody like me might be rather difficult.

I was in that mindset not long ago Old Ruminator but had a kind of "epiphany" that I could do some good in the caving world (I've been reading too much Tolkien); It has been a fascinating transition and revealed hitherto un-thought off deeds from my perspective. For instance, I don't know if you have difficulty recruiting new blood into your caving group; anybody under 50 is welcomed into the CPC with open arms; BCA has a youth development set up potentially producing our future young blood. Anyway, I've got a reach long enough to lift a pint off a bar, how far away are you and I'll come over and buy you a pint and chew the fat.

 

[Russell Myers]

You may "sort things out locally" but bear in mind the CSCC doesn't magic it's money out of some dig somewhere.

You can see your membership fee at work every time you see a nice shiny CSCC padlock, or go through the entrances to Hunters Lodge or Loxton.

The CSCC put a lot of effort into those access agreements and conservation works so you can "just go caving" without ever having to think about it.

It may bore your pants off (it's bores the people on council too!) and it may not publicise what it does very well, but to claim the BCA isn't relevant to your caving is somewhat strange.

I know if I divide my yearly fee by the amount of bolts and gates I've used it works out pretty good value for money.

Good points 2xw, how many folk know there is the thick end of ?300k in the kitty and some of it potentially available for worthwhile projects?

 

[mikem]

?300,000?!?

 

[Russell Myers]

?300,000?!?

Here you go - Council Minutes 11/01/2020 Page 3. Openly available on the BCA website along with a host of other stuff I thought that may prick some ears up. BCA anymore interesting/boring?

 

[Ed]

Some gates and locks are paid for by a conservation fee when a trip goes down the cave. In our digs we supply our own such things. I don't want to generate even more argument here I am just putting my own perception which as has been suggested might be totally erroneous.

Perhaps its a case of " What have the Romans done for us " for those that remember the film.

Go Yorkshire - save yourself a few ?. Don't bother with padlocks 

 

[mikem]

?80,000 of that is insurance reserve, which should maybe be bumped up to ?100,000, if it's actually necessary.

 

[Russell Myers]

?300,000?!?

Here you go - Council Minutes 11/01/2020 Page 3. Openly available on the BCA website along with a host of other stuff I thought that may prick some ears up. BCA anymore interesting/boring?

For the link https://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=about:documents:council_meetings:bca_council_meeting_11th_january_2020_reports.pdf

 

[mrodoc]

Why don't you get some jet washers and start cleaning up some caves. I have donated to CSCC who bought some for use on Mendip. You could do some  great cleaning  in GG between Main Chamber and Mud Hall.

 

[nearlywhite]

To me it just seems things would be much the same whether it ceased to exist at all.

Possibly. I would do the things I do for the caving community with or without BCA, as would most of council. People would work in their small groups, reach out to other regions and learn from each other and maybe band together to form a... oh no wait. I have often referred to much of the BCA constitutional reform as 'rearranging the deck chairs' because building a functional governing body is more about bringing in people and bolstering caving's 'civil service'.

I would argue that national organisation allows us certain economies of scale that makes certain projects viable. As Russell points out, we have a big opportunity to invest and we should do so wisely. Bring a proposal to BCA and you might be surprised!

It's just that to me it has no relevance whatsoever and really that's my problem. Reaching out ( as they say ) to somebody like me might be rather difficult.

I don't think we have to. I very much follow Nick William's view on what the BCA should do - help cavers. Doesn't matter if they are members, if they think we're irrelevant, or totally disengaged - we will still try and help. Keeping our institutions strong by making sure we help clubs bring in the next generation of cavers, supporting BCRA, Ghar Parau, all the Y&D stuff etc. Perhaps more of your fellow cavers are helped by BCA than you realise? I guess my point is that, perhaps inadvertently, we're both working towards the same goal - enriching the community and making sure there's something to pass on.

I guess I should add my voice to the public chorus of thanks to Matt and Russell - I've already had long discussions with Russell and work is already underway. He very much has my support and I'm happy people are still willing to step in despite the bitter image the organisation currently has. Anyway that's my ramble over - look at the timestamp if it seems incoherent!

PS. CV's do get presented at meetings Pete but I think we'd see more (more publically) if positions were actually contested and thus 'representatives' more representative.

 

[Robert Scott]

Why don't you get some jet washers and start cleaning up some caves. I have donated to CSCC who bought some for use on Mendip. You could do some  great cleaning  in GG between Main Chamber and Mud Hall.

The Bradford have already started that over that last few years.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Why don't you get some jet washers and start cleaning up some caves. I have donated to CSCC who bought some for use on Mendip.

If the BCA was to start doing that the CSCC (and other councils) would be leading the charge to complain that the BCA was interfering in regional matters. However, if a regional council was to purchase jet washers they would (I assume) be able to claim that back from the CSCC as a conservation and access expense. You shouldn't need to donate to the CSCC for them to do this. C&A work is a very small part of the BCA's budget but that's because it's usually cheap and the regional councils don't ask for much, not because the BCA is stingy with the money.

On an tangentially related note, the gate on Hunters Lodge Inn Sink cost the CSCC over ?1000 I think, but this was of course reimbursed by the BCA as a C&A expense.

 

[mikem]

Not quite sure why a regional council would claim back from the CSCC... 

 

[andrewmcleod]

Not quite sure why a regional council would claim back from the CSCC... 

oops (well spotted)... replace second CSCC with BCA:
'However, if a regional council was to purchase jet washers they would (I assume) be able to claim that back from the **BCA** as a conservation and access expense.'

 

[Pitlamp]

Nearlywhite - you wrote "despite the bitter image the organisation currently has".

Most of your post above was really good and clearly there are some issues to be looked at but I think these words go too far. There is much about BCA which is excellent and perhaps we should all focus on the positive side ant just various difficulties which would benefit from being addressed.

Here's one thought which might help shift the balance of thinking back in the right direction a bit - and I'm glad of the opportunity to mention it. I would like to thank those incredibly helpful people who administer our national caving library. I certainly make use of it regularly and see it as just one of the many benefits of membership. This applies to the obvious people in the front line (you know who you are) and many volunteers who do all sorts of work quietly behind the scenes for the benefit of all cavers. So - a very big personal thank you from me. 

 

[nearlywhite]

Nearlywhite - you wrote "despite the bitter image the organisation currently has".

Most of your post above was really good and clearly there are some issues to be looked at but I think these words go too far.

Haha thank you. Perhaps a little over the top Pitlamp - what I meant by that was more that the reputation of council scares away people from volunteering with the BCA - in groups like Y&D for example. Council isn't the whole of the organisation, nor the bulk of the volunteer work (or at least it shouldn't be!). I guess I'm making my own job harder by saying there's a bitter image.  :-[

I'm cautiously optimistic - my proposal for an interim council meeting with a raft of proposals to keep it functioning gained support from pretty much all 'belligerents'. I think there's a coherent plan to fix IT, new blood and ideas coming into Y&D, a plan to further develop P&I and a replacement secretary (possibly the most important cog in the machine!).

I imagine the agenda will be published once we sort out specific dates, to allow people to run for vacant positions and lobby their representatives to vote a certain way. I am hoping it will be livestreamed if possible

 

[Russell Myers]

Nearlywhite - you wrote "despite the bitter image the organisation currently has".

Most of your post above was really good and clearly there are some issues to be looked at but I think these words go too far.

Haha thank you. Perhaps a little over the top Pitlamp - what I meant by that was more that the reputation of council scares away people from volunteering with the BCA - in groups like Y&D for example. Council isn't the whole of the organisation, nor the bulk of the volunteer work (or at least it shouldn't be!). I guess I'm making my own job harder by saying there's a bitter image.  :-[

I'm cautiously optimistic - my proposal for an interim council meeting with a raft of proposals to keep it functioning gained support from pretty much all 'belligerents'. I think there's a coherent plan to fix IT, new blood and ideas coming into Y&D, a plan to further develop P&I and a replacement secretary (possibly the most important cog in the machine!).

I imagine the agenda will be published once we sort out specific dates, to allow people to run for vacant positions and lobby their representatives to vote a certain way. I am hoping it will be livestreamed if possible

I like the idea of being a cog, not so sure about importance, you lot out there are the most important but hey, I can live with it!