New mendip cave map

[chris1984]

hi i have recently been working on compiling a more comprehensive guide to caves on the mendips. data has come from both mendip cave registry and council of southurn caving access guides. if there is a problem with copyright would someone please let me know. i have split the map into 4 groups

Red Marker: Locked caves
Green marker : Open Caves
Purple Markers: Could not find access agreement
Yellow Marker: Show Caves

I am hoping to start to upload pictures of the entrances to the caves and also arrange the caves in alphabetical order. if there is any information or pictures that people have of any of the caves would be very grateful. also if there are any errors would you please let me know the website address is

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=uk&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=105460289527254814987.000463f9ebc11ece61b75

 

[martinr]

A case of reinventing the wheel? This has been done already with a lot more features by Bill Chadwick on th BDCC website.

It's probably not wise to include some of the info - eg you have identified an important arcaheological site complete with 8-figure NGR but without any access details (possibly because you couldnt find any access details). But this cave is not widely advertised BECAUSE it is an important archaeological site!

 

[chris1984]

i think you will find that this is a more complete guide of all of the caves on the mendip that are over 20m in length. and also contains a description of the caves which the braknell caving map does not contain. and is more easy to find out which caves are open. and will be uploading pictures of cave entrances as soon as i can. i have only just started this project and there will be plenty more to add given a bit of time and feedback. also the data for any of the caves that are listed are readily available to anyone, if there is a problem with any of the sites that i have listed let me know and i will remove them from the map.

 

[martinr]

and also contains a discription of the caves

This seems to be the main difference between what you have done so far and what Bill has done. So there is a great deal of overlap, and I just wonder what the merit would be in having 2 maps with pretty much the same info?

Can I ask who will be writting the descriptions of the caves? Will you be visiting every one of these caves yourself and writing your own guide, or will you republishing information that is already in the public domain (ie not subject to copyright)? I believe Bill has been very careful not to publish other peoples work without permission. That could be why his site has "omissions".

 

[martinr]

Sorry - re-reading my posts, I come across as being very negative which I didnt mean to be. I never was very good at constructive critcism.

What I am trying to say is that a collaborative effort, where new contributors build on the work that has been done before, leads to a better result. But instaed we now have 2 mapping sites trying to achive similar things, which at first sight look quite similar? A bit like having to buy Mendip Underground and Complete Caves of Mendip instead of buying a single guide book.

 

[Cookie]

If there is a problem with copyright would someone please let me know.

You've met the CSCC's conditions for using their data, so that is all good.

The CSCC Access Information is made freely available subject to the following conditions:

  1. That a ?Copyright ? CSCC Year. This data is available from www.cscc.org.uk? notice is displayed.
  2. That a date is displayed showing how current the data is.
  3. That access information can be displayed without location information, but location information cannot be displayed without access information.
  4. That digital data supplied by the CSCC must not be re-distributed.

However there is no such notice on the MCRA website.

I suspect the conditions will be similar so you'll be OK so long as the MCRA are acknowledgement.

But to be sure I really think you should contact the MCRA and seek permission to use their data.

 

[cap n chris]

Cool!

But....

You don't have a colour which specifies Access Denied (ie Lamb Leer); also (if you want it) you could have a colour for the caves which are SSSI sites (although tbh this isn't of much interest to your average Joe caver) - as MartinR has also pointed out there are sites which arguably shouldn't be listed since they are conservationally highly sensitive and no sporting visits to them occur plus there are sites which don't appear to be on your list yet. Personally I like the idea of the entrance pictures (and I have many many such here already, should you want them - let me know).

Finally, the list of caves isn't in alphabetical order which makes finding the location of a cave you know the name of a bit of a palaver.

But....

Cool!



{No markers yet for the undiscovered caves, I note}

 

[matty007d]

Nice work Chris

Can I ask who will be writting the descriptions of the caves? Will you be visiting every one of these caves yourself

That's a good idea. May take some time though. Let's do it.

{No markers yet for the undiscovered caves, I note}

 

[graham]

Far be it for me to discourage initiative, but I do wonder exactly what this adds to the information on Bill's map and on the MCRA site. Add the access info on the CSCC site to those & all this stuff is already available, except perhaps photos of entrances.

There is also http://www.ukcaves.co.uk which covers similar ground though with a longer "cut-off" point.

 

[Christian_Chourot]

My reaction when I saw this was - great, someone has done what I've been meaning to do ever since I started caving - arranged information about Mendip caves in a way that is categorised by ease of access.

When you want to go somewhere new, you can spend forever leafing through Mendip Underground looking for caves that are not access denied, not locked, and don't require substantial notice to get a key, permit, leader or combination of the above (or the right contacts to do this at short notice). To have this displayed by using coloured markers is definitely something new that I know all of the other students I cave with will appreciate as we've wanted something that does this for ages.

Just having the same information there doesn't make something redundant a redundant source if you can find a way to present it better. For example, I am yet to find a way to browse the MCRA site, I have to enter a place and put a 2km radius (very small, any reason why a larger one can't be selected) from that place to browse caves, it would be nice if you could scroll and zoom in and out around the map in the way you can on the BDCC map. If that facility exists, can somebody point it out to me?

 

[mrodoc]

Some good ideas but why not join forces with MRCA - I know that we plan to introduce cave entrance/location photos. My main concern is that enthusiasm might wane particularly when it is a solo project and we are left with a hanging undated site. Incidentally I cannot see anything but a map on my computer!

 

[chris1984]

thank you for everyones advice. if there is any problem with sites that i have listed, would people please just pm me instead of criticising what is wrong and not letting me know. If there is a problem with archaeological sites being listed then surly the mrca web site should not advertise them either. i don't see the problem in combining information together to make it easier for people to use. the bdcc website could be improved instead of having 2 maps but it has been over a years since the website was updated, and so many people had ideas on how to improve the maps but nothing changed. i will be sorting out the caves names in alphabetical order asap and any idea on how to improve the map are welcome. 

 

[mikem]

Of course front 1/2 of Aveline's is open, but 2nd half is locked!

Mike

 

[cap n chris]

The first half of Charterhouse Cave is locked and so is the second! Different keys, too!

 

[chris1984]

a very good question i will have to think about that one. maybe half green half red, or will it all just get to confusing having a million different coloured marker. i do like the undiscovered caves marker idea ,will have to secretly hide it on the map, look out for it. i have arranged the caves in alphabetical order, and cap n Chris has kindly donated some entrance photo's so will be uploading soon.

 

[whitelackington]

Triple Hole has four entrances.

 

[mikem]

Entrance to Loxton Quarry Cave (if you can get the lock open!)

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=279500&l=b6e1e&id=1375922395

Feel free to use...

Mike

 

[chris1984]

big thanks to cap n chris photos uploaded for

Attborough Swallet
Balch Erratic Passage upper entrance
Blackmoor Swallet (STAINSBY'S SHAFT)
Conning Tower Cave
Coral Cave
Cuckoo Cleeves
Five Buddles Sink
Goatchurch Cavern
Hillier's Cave
Hillwithy Cave
Long Hole
Loxton Cave
Loxton Cavern
Loxton Quarry Cave
Shatter Cave
Shute Shelve Cavern
Totty Pot
Ubley Hill Pot

also I think i have sorted out the problem site that was listed, it has been removed from the map. please inform me of any more problems.

 

[Cookie]

please inform me of any more problems.

As per my post on the 3rd, you have not recognised MCRA's copyright. Nor do I believe you have contacted them to ask permission.

A few dedicated individuals have put a huge amount of work in over many years to produce that information. I think they deserve a little more respect.

 

[chris1984]

hi there cookie i have spoken to some of the atlas diggers a that operate the mendip cave registry. i spoke to a person called Matt, and he did not seem to mind me using the data, and i am going to be sharing any entrance photos with the mendip cave registry. why are people so against making thing easier for cavers on the mendips.