New Secretary for CCC.

[NigR]

Simon: I don't profess to understand the full background to all this but:
1  Roy is Legal and Insurance Officer for CCC as well as director of CAL, etc
2  Allan is a member of SWCC, as is Jopo. Allan was an officer of the OFD access body (separate but closely related to SWCC, I think) until some time last year, leaving him available to volunteer to act as Secretary to CCC when Dave Tyson (who resigned as secretary last year but took up the reins again when his elected replacement resigned suddenly) advertised for replacements.
3  Rhys used to be Newsletter editor for CCC until he resigned abruptly after a substantial change of the CCC committee in 2014 - Dave took his place (as well as being Secretary, and a Director of CAL).
4  I was co-opted into CCC as cave registrar in 2014 after the previous registrar also resigned abruptly.
5  Stuart France is Conservation and Access officer for CCC, besides being a Director of CAL, involved with the controversy over Draenen's 2nd entrance, and subsequently Drws Cefn, and Twll Du.

Just to add to Martin's potted synopsis of the changes that have taken place within Cambrian Caving Council in recent years:

In addition to Dave Tyson becoming Secretary and Stuart France being elected as Conservation and Access Officer, two other key changes were made to the CCC Executive at the 2014 AGM: Martyn Farr became Chairman and Ian Adams assumed the role of Treasurer. If none of this had occurred, I think it is safe to say that the direction taken by CCC since then (and also the personnel to have subsequently come on board, including Roy and Martin) would have been very different. For example, had nobody stood against them, Bernie Woodley was all set to become Conservation and Access Officer, whilst Robin Weare would have moved up from Treasurer to Chairman in Bernie's place. One final point to note and bear in mind is that all of this only really came about due to the sudden and unfortunate death of Elsie Little in the summer of the previous year (Elsie was CCC C&A Officer for many years).

Hope this makes things even clearer for you, Simon. Now, on to your queries regarding the PDCMG: someone else can go first, though!

 

[Jopo]

I am sorry if my OP was seen as questioning the CCC democracy. What I was questioning was why had the CCC not made a announcement on the website or newsletter - not me on this forum. I know Allan and until he has had a chance to bed in and we see what he takes to the table he deserves support. I will say that he almost certainly has a much better relationship with NRW than Stuart France so perhaps some of the heat can be taken out of the Draenen situation.

My comment about now not having all three CAL directors on the CCC exec may have prompted Roy to the extent he felt he had to explain his side of the saga albeit he explains at length the reasons behind CMT and NAL both of which are property and/or mineral rights owners but not the reasoning behind CAL a company solely set up to administer access.

I am not a fan of dictatorships so it is hardly surprising that I find some of Roy's comments concerning.

Cambrian Mines Trust (Neither S France or D Tyson are directors).
'As original subscriber I own the company for as long as I live. The company owns the land at Cwmystwyth and as such I could literally wrap the place in gates, chains and padlocks. My signature at the bottom of this posting explains my attitude on this'.

and

'We are not democratic, we don?t do democracy and as such don?t support company hijacking. The wording of our articles supports our attitude on access'. It is not clear as to which company Roy is referring.

The first quote begs the question of what happens when the inevitable does but reading the articles of CMT I see all sorts of references to voting by directors and such. Unless I missed something (and it is a long read) CMT does not seem to be as much of a personal fiefdom that Roy makes it out to be.
The second quote is at odds with my belief in democracy. Perhaps Roy, Stuart and Dave (the we?) should just select who they wish to arrange access throughout Wales. It would do away with all those awkward meetings, voting and agm's.

I cannot see why the access agreements set up between CAL and the landowners could not have been done on behalf of the CCC who can of course change their constitution aims for anything the membership agree and be protected by the BCA access body insurance (and at the same time perhaps remove the article supporting of landowners wishes similar to that which caused so much contention within the BCA.

The majority of those who post here seem to accept the undemocratic nature of CAL as long as it suits them. I don't and have no interest in trying to persuade others to my view - I am just stating it.

Like most here I am in favour of simpler access for bona fide cavers to all caves/mines whether members of national or local bodies or otherwise.
Reading the  excellent CCC list of access requirements for Welsh and some FoD sites makes one realize just how diverse access can be and how often the landowners conditions have to taken into account.

To comment upon some points Martin Laverty raised.
The OFD Cave Management Committee comprises of members of SWCC, CCC and the landowners NRW with SWCC administering access  for the OFDCMC. OFD1 Entrance is owned by SWCC and administered by them.

6  BradW is ? the voice of reason ? a dissenting voice ? an Aunt Sally ?

I suspect that there may be some mistrust within SWCC, quite apart from CCC, which may have influenced the OP. Then different personal references or concerns (some from a 4 year old dispute over CCC's direction and attitude to access, including CRoW?) took over to weave this thread... It's a tangled web!

Although a longstanding member of SWCC it is years since I was on the committee so would not claim to up to date with the current situation regards CCC-SWCC or if the conflict was meant to refer to between members of the SWCC.
I am not speaking on behalf of anyone or any group other than myself. SWCC is a very large club and there is a range opinion. Living where I do I get to speak to a quite few of the regulars some of whom think as I do and others do not.

My comment about CAL no longer having all 3 directors on the CCC exec was because I found it far too cosy and possibly prone to a conflict of interest (I am sure someone will point out that 3 of the current CCC officers are also members of SWCC).
I thank Martin for his concise summary of the changeover of officers in a relatively short period but I don't know what to make of his point 6.

So, there has been a bit of a revolution during which there was a change of officers and now the views of the officers of the CCC reflect the view of the majority of cavers. That is, generally in favour of allowing cavers to go into caves without too much fuss. So far so good.

I have no idea what the majority of cavers in Wales think of the new CCC. I do know that the vast majority do not post here.

BUT - there's a problem because even though they might be a quite a small minority the 'controllers' (trying my best not to be too derogatory) hold a few 'key' positions - right? Getting things out in the open can only help here.

True.

Jopo

 

[Dave Tyson]

Jopo,

Rhys hit the nail on the head when he said:

"I was led to believe that the Cave Access Ltd was set up mainly to limit the personal liability of the Cambrian CC officers."

If CCC had taken this on directly then the committee would be in the firing line if something happened which the BCA insurance failed to cover. I don't think any of us wanted to be exposed to any claims which could turn out to be very costly. It seemed the best policy was to set up a limited company to reduce personal liability. We still need to be careful to document possible dangers and do 'due diligence'.

Yes, we are a benevolent dictatorship. I am happy to resign from CAL and let you be a director in my place (subject to agreement with the other two directors)  if you can deal with the daily email for permits and other queries... You also need to visit some of the sites once in a while to check for dangers...

Dave

 

[NewStuff]

Jopo - Storm in a teacup.
No-one is building an Empire here - Those days are long gone in N.Wales. I regularly call out clubs like the GCC on their access shenanigans.
Open access-minded people like Dave, Roy, Stuart, and many others that are not CAL directors, have dragged the underground "scene" here out of the 70's and breathed fresh life into it. Why on earth would they want to return to something they have fought so hard to get rid of?

 

[royfellows]

Cambrian Mines Trust (Neither S France or D Tyson are directors).
'As original subscriber I own the company for as long as I live. The company owns the land at Cwmystwyth and as such I could literally wrap the place in gates, chains and padlocks. My signature at the bottom of this posting explains my attitude on this'.

and

'We are not democratic, we don?t do democracy and as such don?t support company hijacking. The wording of our articles supports our attitude on access'. It is not clear as to which company Roy is referring.

The first quote begs the question of what happens when the inevitable does but reading the articles of CMT I see all sorts of references to voting by directors and such. Unless I missed something (and it is a long read) CMT does not seem to be as much of a personal fiefdom that Roy makes it out to be.

Just to give direct answers

I am I would of thought, quite obviously referring to CMT!

Yes you have missed something. Subscribers are the company owners when it relates to a company limited by guarantee. Equivalent of shareholders relative to an ordinary company. Directors are employees. Think about it.

 

[Rhys]

3  Rhys used to be Newsletter editor for CCC until he resigned abruptly after a substantial change of the CCC committee in 2014

Well, I didn't exactly resign, but I don't suppose that matters now.

 

[Simon Wilson]

3  Rhys used to be Newsletter editor for CCC until he resigned abruptly after a substantial change of the CCC committee in 2014

Well, I didn't exactly resign, but I don't suppose that matters now.

It appears to matter enough for you to want to tell us. Please tell us what happened.

 

[Simon Wilson]

So, there has been a bit of a revolution during which there was a change of officers and now the views of the officers of the CCC reflect the view of the majority of cavers. That is, generally in favour of allowing cavers to go into caves without too much fuss. So far so good.

I have no idea what the majority of cavers in Wales think of the new CCC. I do know that the vast majority do not post here.

Jopo

I didn't say, "the majority of cavers in Wales"; I said, "the majority of cavers."

 

[Rhys]

3  Rhys used to be Newsletter editor for CCC until he resigned abruptly after a substantial change of the CCC committee in 2014

Well, I didn't exactly resign, but I don't suppose that matters now.

It appears to matter enough for you to want to tell us. Please tell us what happened.

Well, it's history now and has been discussed here before. But if you're keen to hear again...

There was a dispute over editorial policy and some e-mail exchanges followed. I asked the committee to confirm if they still wanted me to edit the newsletter. The secretary said in an e-mail to me "It's probably in the best interests of all if I edit the newsletter..." so I handed the role over. I suppose I could've argued a bit more or forced them to vote on it, but it didn't seem worth it!

Was it a resignation or a sacking? Probably somewhere in between. Forced out, perhaps. Not that interesting 4 years down the line though.

HTH
Rhys

 

[BradW]

When you are not wanted any more there's no point in sticking around. But there are ways of resolving issues in a civilised manner.