Northern caving needs you

[NigR]

Cavers have a reasonably good and generally improving relationship with the landowners, estate managers, farmers etc on the fells which have access agreements and I don't think anybody wants to see that change.

Nobody, myself included, would argue with those sentiments (other than expressing a wish to see changes for the better in those cases where they might be needed).

My criticisms are not directed at the landowners in this instance, they are aimed at the cavers who have lied to them. The landowners can hardly be blamed for believing that a failed system is still working when this is what they have consistently been told, presumably by people they have been fooled into trusting.

As Jason has pointed out, the present situation appears to have been brought about by the actions of the caving clubs making up the CNCC (purely to serve their own ends), not the landowners. Susie has outlined the most obvious reasons for this but the feeling persists that there are other, less transparent, motives in play too. It will be interesting to see whether these might be more fully revealed as time goes on.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Don't worry Nig. Things are definitely changing for the better and it should be mostly quite friendly too.

 

[Simon Beck]

Why is it always the same folk, those that live hundreds of miles away, who claim to know more about what is going on in the dales than those of us who actually live here.
I doubt anybody really knows how many pirate trips occur. But i also doubt all the pirates are telling the same person they're pirating.
Plus, i doubt that places like leck fell, and this is mainly due to the limited parking, really see's that much pirating especially in the bigger of holes.
Everyone's welcome to an opinion but there are some folk here (past and present) who really get up their own arses about stuff that's not really of great enough relevance to them, to warrant them getting up their own arses about in the first place.

 

[Badlad]

I live about five minutes drive away from Leck Fell.  During a two year period of intense caving activity on the Fell (2010/11) I conducted a rough poll on all the cavers I encountered.  This is not scientific but I was on the fell 2-3 days a week, both weekends and mid week.  In my best, informed estimate I would say that between 60 and 70% of the cavers I encountered did not have a permit.  Of those that did I would estimate that around 15-20% were using the so called 'digging permit system', and the rest were using the standard permit for normal clubs trips.  A few months ago I had reason to visit the fell a number of times and this experience would again confirm my earlier findings.

So what I am saying is that for every 10 cavers you meet on the fell 6-7 are caving outside the club permit system.

 

[Simon Beck]

I'm assuming your post badland was in response to mine. And well, fair enough, but at least you've seen this with your own eyes. My post was in response to those who don't witness these events and base their intel on hearsay.

 

[Bottlebank]

I live an hour from Leck Fell and have caved regularly in the Dales for nearly thirty years.

At one time you'd have struggled to find anyone on Leck or Casterton with a permit but in the last few years more have been issued and his figure of 60-70% sounds about right.

In other words about two thirds of trips are probably pirate trips - and this has nothing to do with the landowner and everything to do with the CNCC's refusal to represent all cavers and hopelessly cumbersome and outdated booking system.

And let's clear up one fallacy, clubs booking trips is no guarantee whatsoever of competency or good behaviour on the part of all their members. The main reason most cavers are "well behaved" is that most are sensible and level headed people and the main reason for competency is self protection. Whether they are club members or not is irrelevant, although obviously club members perhaps have better opportunities for training.

 

[Badlad]

I'm assuming your post badland was in response to mine. And well, fair enough, but at least you've seen this with your own eyes. My post was in response to those who don't witness these events and base their intel on hearsay.

Sorry if it looked like I was stomping on your post - not intended.  I kind of agree with what you were saying, but wanted to put forward an informed local view too, even if it does support what some of the others have been saying.