Pc non-pc cave names

[PeteHall]

how someone dresses is exactly about gender, but there should be no pressure to dress a particular way due to their biological sex.

So if I were to feel more comfortable wearing a skirt, or heels, etc, that would entitle me to enter women-only spaces and compete in women's sports?

I honestly thought we'd got over these ridiculous gender stereotypes. Wear whatever you like, but that doesn't change biological reality and shouldn't necessitate lifelong medication and all the associated negative side effects. Nor should it entitle you to use facilities intended for the opposite sex, or gain unfair advantage competing against the opposite sex in sports.

 

[mikem]

Are both sides of this discussion deliberately misunderstanding each other..?

Anyway, gender being social conditioning wasn't introduced until after WW2, whilst:

In 1926, Henry Watson Fowler stated that the definition of the word pertained to this grammar-related meaning:

"Gender...is a grammatical term only. To talk of persons...of the masculine or feminine g[ender], meaning of the male or female sex, is either a jocularity (permissible or not according to context) or a blunder." [Fowler's Modern English Usage p.211]

Which shows it was in general use before that, but not a dictionary definition then.

 

[2xw]

It's fascinating to see the right wing twist itself in circles over this complete non-issue. Maybe we should just have unisex toilets (like the ones in your house!) then the Daily Mailerites/Gray Twitterati would have to find something else to get into a spittle faced rage about. Can't be poverty, healthcare, the justice system, foreign policy or climate as caring about those things makes you basically a communist nowadays.

I reckon it's cos those of a certain generation spent their entire life having their tastes catered too and now the free market has moved on and is catering to the next generations. How many of you mewling about Roald Dahl have actually bought a Roald Dahl book recently? Same with comedy - you're not the target audience anymore!

I can't wait until I turn illiberal Conservative when I reach late middle age. Maybe I'll be on UKcaving in 2060 complaining that you're not allowed to use the term "robots" for the multidimensional sex holograms and other innovations.

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

JKR has spent her money on supporting feminism by ensuring that fellas dressed as women don't invade female spaces for unsavoury purposes. I'd hardly call that anti-trans.

As a cis woman, 100% of the assault and harassment I have experienced has been by cis men. I have many female friends that happen to be trans and I have never once felt unsafe around any of them. My trans friends hold a very deep understanding of consent, respect and acceptance. They have to deal with the misogyny the rest of us have to deal with ON TOP of transphobia, both of which are present pretty much everywhere... including in the caving community, as demonstrated by this thread and many other personal experiences. Trans women are women (full stop) therefore they are not 'invading' female spaces because they belong in female spaces. That's like saying that I, as a queer person, could be 'invading' a queer space. It doesn't make sense. JKR is a trans-exclusionary feminist, and in my opinion 'trans-exclusionary' is a synonym for 'anti-trans'.
I hope queer theory continues to 'leak out' 'all over the place'. I for one prefer to live in a world where diversity is embraced and people are free to be themselves.

 

[RobinGriffiths]

I can't wait until I turn illiberal Conservative when I reach late middle age. Maybe I'll be on UKcaving in 2060 complaining that you're not allowed to use the term "robots" for the multidimensional sex holograms and other innovations.

Carefull. That could be considered to be an ageist comment...

 

[Fjell]

It's fascinating to see the right wing twist itself in circles over this complete non-issue. Maybe we should just have unisex toilets (like the ones in your house!) then the Daily Mailerites/Gray Twitterati would have to find something else to get into a spittle faced rage about. Can't be poverty, healthcare, the justice system, foreign policy or climate as caring about those things makes you basically a communist nowadays.

I reckon it's cos those of a certain generation spent their entire life having their tastes catered too and now the free market has moved on and is catering to the next generations. How many of you mewling about Roald Dahl have actually bought a Roald Dahl book recently? Same with comedy - you're not the target audience anymore!

I can't wait until I turn illiberal Conservative when I reach late middle age. Maybe I'll be on UKcaving in 2060 complaining that you're not allowed to use the term "robots" for the multidimensional sex holograms and other innovations.

We had unisex toilets at work 20 years ago. You could sit and contemplate the tampons and pads conveniently piled up. But you had your own door to the corridor which is the basic requirement to make it acceptable to most. And there were big signs about not pissing and missing from the door. Women don’t appreciate standing in a lake - bad for the shoes.

Having got three kids we have fairly recent copies of Roald Dahl. They are all now at uni and the behaviour of them and their friends is very very far from giving a crap about things like the environment. You only have to go to a big music festival to get the picture. Students regularly get pizza delivered at £25 a pop (I know this because I see the bank statements). One of my kids went to see Greta in Bristol and then rushed off to Dublin for a weekend break with his girlfriend. No shame. Two of them drive me insane with moaning about the NHS (being medical students). I can only agree it is appallingly run and needs burning to the ground, but they seem to blame me after a while. I am going to move back to Holland for some decent healthcare when the time comes.

None of this is remotely important. Other things are.

 

[AR]

Is it not responding to consumer demand?

Are you suggesting that as soon as something is published, the author looses control over it, is no longer able to edit or amend without some form of reactionary committee censoring their work.

A few years ago the Pogues were fully behind the de-faggoted Fairytale of New York version. Should they have been censored, their speech restricted, made to keep singing lyrics they no longer wanted to. Would you send language police to their gigs?

Artists, authors, and publishers choosing to move with the times is not censorship. Mandating what artists, authors and publishers say or write is.

Wow - so much inferred from three words and a hyperlink!

Might I point out to you that Roald Dahl has been dead for quite a long time now and so is unable to give his consent, and if he were still alive I stongly suspect his response to a request to change his work in the manner it has been would be quite short, and encompass both sex and travel? Shane MacGowan is, on the other hand, still alive and can and should make his own decisions on whether or not to change the lyrics of "Fairy Tale".

As for consumer demand, I'd be interested to see any actual evidence for that consumers were wanting them re-written - the cynic in me wonders if there's a warehouse full of the original versions somewhere that the publishers want to shift, and reckon a bit of controversy will do the trick...

To treat your words in the same manner as you treated mine, are you suggesting that the original versions of Dahl's works in every library should be replaced with these new versions, and perhaps the originals burned so no-one has to suffer the potential injury of reading them?

 

[2xw]

May I point out to you that Roald Dahl's opinion or consent, whether or not he be dead, would be entirely irrelevant. The books are a product that have been sold by his descendents to Netflix and Netflix can do whatever they think best with them. Companies pander to their market and they spend a lot of money finding out what that market is. It's not complicated it's just capitalism. Same thing with the comedian mentioned up the thread.

As for Fjells reply:

 

[Badlad]

I am glad we moved on from Alf Garnet and Benny Hill humour myself.

 

[2xw]

Anyways back to the subject of the actual thread, if we want to lightly poke fun at or caricature "woke", whatever that means, I propose the following:

Priddy Green Sink changed to Priddy Rainbow Sink
Bull Pot of the Witches changed to Cattle Pot of the Socially Maligned Women Who Probably Did Nothing Wrong
Wretched Rabbit changed to Wretched But Ecologically Sustainable Fair Trade Vegetable Protein
Peak Cavern changed to Average Cavern
Nickergrove Mine changed to Rehabilitated Former Offender Mine (or perhaps Pantsgrove?)
Gaping Gill changed to It's A Potential Not An Absolute Space Gill
Rather be dead than Welsh changed to Ogof Twll Din Pob Saes (maybe that's swinging too far the other way?)
Draenan changed to Everybody Equally Welcome To This Cave, No Really Ffynon Ddu
I'm not sure which one but surely we can call a cave The World Really Has Gone PC Mad Pot

After we've finished the renaming maybe we can make a statue of Eduard Martell and find some young folk to throw it in a canal

Sorry Badlad, hope that's not too Benny Hill....

 

[Loki]

Just read the OP. How about 'Thunder Thighs Hole'. Is that offensive? I guess it's meant to be to someone. How would you rename that?

Walnut Cracker?

 

[mikem]

Bit more considered than the title suggests:

The butchering of Roald Dahl is an assault on liberty by a neurotic elite

The wokesters censor words in the name of wellbeing, but our culture and children are less well now than before

www.telegraph.co.uk

Alf Garnett was taking the p*** of those attitudes, but wasn't recognised as such by many people

gender | Etymology of gender by etymonline

"kind, sort, class, a class or kind of persons or things sharing certain traits," from… See origin and meaning of gender.

www.etymonline.com

 

[Fjell]

This is what happens when some people allow ideology to get the better of them. Just because you want something to be true, doesn’t mean it is. That is a religion when all is said and done, so at least be honest about it.

Time to Think by Hannah Barnes review – what went wrong at Gids?

The BBC Newsnight reporter’s investigation into the Tavistock’s gender identity clinic for children makes disturbing reading

www.theguardian.com

 

[mikem]

Covering many of the points made during this discussion (including Rowling), plus Dahl's anti Semitic comments, that his family apologised for after his death:

Roald Dahl’s books rewritten to remove ‘offensive’ bits: The edits, the outrage, and other similar attempts

As Salman Rushdie said, Roald Dahl 'was no angel'. But the recent changes have attracted criticism on primarily two counts: the extent to which an author's work can be rewritten, and the questionable nature of the changes made.

www.indianexpress.com

 

[Fjell]

Covering many of the points made during this discussion (including Rowling), plus Dahl's anti Semitic comments, that his family apologised for after his death:

Roald Dahl’s books rewritten to remove ‘offensive’ bits: The edits, the outrage, and other similar attempts

As Salman Rushdie said, Roald Dahl 'was no angel'. But the recent changes have attracted criticism on primarily two counts: the extent to which an author's work can be rewritten, and the questionable nature of the changes made.

www.indianexpress.com

As my wife pointed out, wait until they get to Trollop. Tricky.

 

[mikem]

Anthony or Joanna...?

Why Trollope Is Trending

No novelist gets politics and gossip better.

www.newyorker.com

Joanna Trollope blasts J. K. Rowling as having an 'insatiable ego'

Joanna Trollope has fired what is bound to be the first salvo in a right royal war of words - blasting Harry Potter author J. K. Rowling for her ‘insatiable’ obsession with social media.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Fjell]

Interestingly all the European publishers have said they are not going to change the Dahl books, So there will be a divergence in the space-time continuum. It will be good for your kids education to read him in French or German.

 

[FabianE]

'cis men' is the term you're looking for here

All these woke people moaning that that used to get labelled...
Now it's labelling galore.
If anyone refers to me as "cis male" they will have lost my respect and are nothing but a Muppet... Be it male, female, transgender, toaster, brush, whichever... Muppet! 🤣🤣

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

All these woke people moaning that that used to get labelled...
Now it's labelling galore.
If anyone refers to me as "cis male" they will have lost my respect and are nothing but a Muppet... Be it male, female, transgender, toaster, brush, whichever... Muppet! 🤣🤣

You're the muppet here. Clearly misunderstanding the entire conversation, and everything that has been said. I will not repeat myself. It is exhausting having to explain simple concepts over and over again to small-minded people like yourself. People wonder why so few young people use UKC. This is why. I for one shall be leaving this forum, and encouraging my peers to do the same, until it gains moderators that are willing to shut down transphobia and everyone else that whinges of 'wokeism' just because we choose to stand up for each other. Perhaps this is me being a snowflake. Perhaps this is me choosing not to waste any more time on an archaic corner of the internet where people still think things like gender diversity are up for debate. Adios Kermit

 

[MarkS]

People wonder why so few young people use UKC. This is why. I for one shall be leaving this forum, and encouraging my peers to do the same, until it gains moderators that are willing to shut down transphobia and everyone else that whinges of 'wokeism' just because we choose to stand up for each other.

With my moderator hat on:

I can't speak for other moderators, but the main reason I haven't stepped in as a moderator at all is because no posts have been reported by anyone. I find it a tricky line to tread between facilitating free discussion and censoring peoples' views, so I tend to base my decisions on whether users have reported it and assume that users will use the report function if they want moderators to take action. Rest assured that any reported posts are (as a minimum) discussed by moderators.