Peak District Conjecture.

[bograt]

There's definitely something happening to the south of this system that we don't yet know about.....

Maybe East of South, its good to meet some great folks on this forum who think of the "Wider Picture" of Peak, rather than just "a good trip", I fell in love with the system in the early '70's, did a lot of work down there, and still spend a lot of time thinking about the Old Lady.
BTW, have we ever met  Rob?.
T.Pots idea about a meeting could be an excellent idea, providing I could get a sofa to sleep on, if folks want I could bring the slides, I am certainly NOT going to drive after this kind of assembly!!!.

 

[pwhole]

The Chapel would seem an obvious possibility - there's even beds there! Or would that bring back too many memories...?

 

[bograt]

The Chapel would seem an obvious possibility - there's even beds there! Or would that bring back too many memories...?

Memories is memories, can definitely say no bad memories of the Chapel, (I did play a key part in getting it for TSG) it would be interesting seeing if Dr. Harold Lords dreads came to fruition, (probably not, seeing as how its not been sold yet for a vast profit!)

Maybe a good subject for a book; "The History Of A Peak District Caving Hostel" ? (Though, thinking about it, maybe not a best seller :-[), I still have (somewhere) a copy of all the documentation compiled by me and Mr. P.B. presented to the lawyers.

OFF TOPIC!!!!


Back on subject, when did anyone take an analytical view of Picnic Dig?, to me as a layman it appears that all the Peak pushing over the last 25 years has been done to the West, maybe because it is more recent and so more easily accessible. The stuff to the East is more high level phreatic and therefore takes more effort to clear, but the rewards are greater (IMO)!.

 

[pwhole]

I'd keep those docs to yourself if I were you

Here's something I've been faffing with for a little while, utilising about as much science as tea-leaves - but - I tried to just look at the map and work out possible connections between known passages/chambers based on possible fracture/joint leadings, and then trace them out to see where they end up. Surprisingly, many join at other known chambers! So at least it's vaguely along the right lines, if you'll excuse the pun.

Which lead me to wonder if areas of blanks space where lines meet might be places worth looking at again. Although equally interestingly (or worryingly), there aren't as many of those! As I mentioned, zero science, just guesswork, but it's all good fun.

Larger version here: http://www.pwhole.com/dump/images/System_joints.jpg

 

[Pitlamp]

Just for the record - I found a mammal bone at the top of Victoria Aven some time ago. (By this I mean the other aven - not the one that leads to Elephants Head Chamber etc).

There are some thoughts on the possible relationship between Dirtlow Rake and Peak Cavern in an article in the most recent TSG Journal. In particular, Styx Inlet Sump (near Halfway House Sump) is a very significant feeder to the Peak system. It's a decent sized phreatic tube largely filled with sediment. After wet spells the silt floor is covered with fresh ripple marks indicating outward flow. Also there have been items of litter found from time to time. The current end of this sump is beyond the floor of Cavedale. It was traditional for people to empty their dustbins down assorted mineshafts at the east end of Dirtlow Rake until well into the 1970s and this may be where the litter has come from. The upward dig in boulders at the end is exceptionally difficult to pursue whilst diving (because it's upwards and after 3 seconds nothing can be seen - gulp!) but if the whole sump were to be pumped out (which is ambitious - but far from impossible) I'm sure it could be dealt with in the dry.

My last top tip for a sump busting exercise (Lumbago) produced a fair bit of passage - but the potential at Styx Inlet is far greater.

 

[Rob]

BTW, have we ever met  Rob?.

Not properly, if at all. Maybe at the Eldon 50th in Buxton? Don't worry, I wouldn't have remembered me...

In particular, Styx Inlet Sump (near Halfway House Sump) is a very significant feeder to the Peak system. It's a decent sized phreatic tube largely filled with sediment. After wet spells the silt floor is covered with fresh ripple marks indicating outward flow....

Are you suggesting that for most of the year it doesn't flow?

...but if the whole sump were to be pumped out (which is ambitious - but far from impossible) I'm sure it could be dealt with in the dry.

What is maximum depth?
(sorry, i don't have access to the TSG journal report at this time)

 

[Pitlamp]

In particular, Styx Inlet Sump (near Halfway House Sump) is a very significant feeder to the Peak system. It's a decent sized phreatic tube largely filled with sediment. After wet spells the silt floor is covered with fresh ripple marks indicating outward flow....

Are you suggesting that for most of the year it doesn't flow?


That's not what I said - I think it flows all the time (as the end area is clear if dived the day after a dive, whereas much of the approach is still hazy) but in wet conditions there's enough flow to create ripple marks.

...but if the whole sump were to be pumped out (which is ambitious - but far from impossible) I'm sure it could be dealt with in the dry.

What is maximum depth?
(sorry, i don't have access to the TSG journal report at this time)

Approx 6 m. The elbow is at the far end of the sump (not ideal) - but that has the advantage that anyone working at the choke would know for certain that the sump isn't filling up behind them. In order to pump Styx Inlet out it would be necessary to isolate it from the pool leading to Halfway House Sump. As this is almost certainly connected to the inlet passage in the Swine Hole to Resurgence Sump, the best bet would be to lower the resurgence by a metre by pumping in the gorge. This would also give access to the abandoned tube beyond the very immature outlet in Halfway Hose Sump. The abandoned tube is blocked by sediment but, if the immature outlet were to be pushed in the dry, it may well rejoin the larger tube or at least give access to it beyond the sediment choke. The whole of Halfway House Sump is extremely shallow.

If anyone is really serious about having a go, it might be best if we were to meet up then I could easily explain the ins and outs with the aid of a few simple diagrams. Mark N has a pretty good idea of the situation already, so it might be worth a chat with him.

You really need to look at that journal article. Now if you'd joined a decent club in the first place, you'd be able to access a good library . . . . .  :tease: 

 

[Pitlamp]

By the way, a good person to talk to, if a group of folk is interested in having a go at this, would be Ed Mason. There might also be something to be said for bringing DCRO into it, as a pumping exercise now and again is probably useful for a CRT - and it may bring in resources which might not be available normally.

 

[bograt]

There might also be something to be said for bringing DCRO into it, as a pumping exercise now and again is probably useful for a CRT - and it may bring in resources which might not be available normally.

I suspect this might involve the fire service, and they don't usually spend a lot of time at practices because of being on permanent standby.

 

[Pitlamp]

One valuable resource might be as simple as man power (by which I include the lasses of course!) which may allow a longer / more comprehensive effort to be made.

Even a short session with a really powerful fire service pump just in the Resurgence would be of value, to learn from it for a full on Styx busting exercise on future (and to get dry cavers to the end of Halfway House Sump - and beyond?).

It's there waiting to be done - just needs someone with good organisational skills and a spot of dry weather.

 

[Goydenman]

We hired two compressors and two high powered Blagdon pumps for two days to lower water in the static sump of Manchester Hole I was surprised it did not cost a great deal. Could something similar be done?

 

[bograt]

Wasn't this mooted for last years Credit Crunch?

 

[Pitlamp]

Yes, it was one of many suggestions - but there were lots of other good suggestions and of course 2012 was a bit of a wet year for pumping jobs.

 

[aquamole jim]

Beyond Ink sump is a choke, I have been working on it for the last twelve years with considerable help from people! I believe the choke is the base of a large diameter Aven ? I will post some film footage in November 

 

[aquamole jim]

It's only a dream but if the choke goes ? And Hollentwine mine rediscovered from the great swallow drain, the Shafts could be radio located and a none diving route created ? But just fantasy at this time.

 

[cavermark]

It's only a dream but if the choke goes ? And Hollentwine mine rediscovered from the great swallow drain, the Shafts could be radio located and a none diving route created ? But just fantasy at this time.

Make our dreams come true Jim!

 

[biffa]

By the way, a good person to talk to, if a group of folk is interested in having a go at this, would be Ed Mason. There might also be something to be said for bringing DCRO into it, as a pumping exercise now and again is probably useful for a CRT - and it may bring in resources which might not be available normally.

DCRO seems to have a good relationship with the Buxton fire station boys so I'll try to ask the question and see what the response is.

 

[Pitlamp]

Thanks, I'm sure it'd make a big difference if they could be persuaded to come onboard with this one.

 

[aquamole jim]

The TSG has a high volume pump, and hose! But no generator, this could be resolved if some one had a word with Nick?

 

[nickwilliams]

Sorry for the lack of attention gents, I've been busy with work...

The generator will go anywhere we can get a 6ft x 10 ft trailer with a 2 ton load on it.

In addition to the TSG's Flygt pump, I also have a 9kW Caprari which was looking like far too good a deal to pass up on e-bay and is now looking for a project.

We looked at the fire service's high capacity pumps when the BCRC conference was last held in Derbyshire. They are huge (the size of a shipping container) and are hydraulically powered so they can't go too far from the prime mover.

Right back to work. You know where I am if you want to play with the goodies.

Nick.