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Petzl Stop on Long Drops!?!

jonnyrocketboots

New member
Hi Guys, No doubt this has been queried before but why shouldn't I use my Stop on a long pitch?  I've seen a few times on the forum Shocked/Scratchy Chin Raised eyebrows and general Thumbs Down 'Smileys' whenever stops and large pitches are combined. Why not? I've been into some of Yorkshires finest on mine without a glitch. Both Long Kins/Juniper Gulf and Nick Pot without cause for concern!  I see stamped on my stop that Petzl don't recommend them for use over 100 metres, Again why not??

Yours Curiously!

Scott
 

dunc

New member
Wankers cramp, especially if it's a thick or stiff rope (that is, pain in the arse feeding rope through) along with other hand doing the death grip on the handle.

Luckily I don't do many big drops, so generally no problem with using a stop!
 

jonnyrocketboots

New member
He he, Thats made me chuckle Dunc!  Wonder if Crankers Wamp Syndrome would be Petzls official reply when I mail them regarding my query!!

Cheers

Scott
 

zomjon

Member
I think it's an age thing - in my 20s and 30s I had no probs with a stop but now I find myself close to the half century, I swear by my rack!
 

jonnyrocketboots

New member
Heat dissipation perhaps, but can't think how a stop would generate so much heat as to make things dangerous? Shouldn't think there's any or much more friction involved than using a fig 8 or a rack or whatever means of descending you choose. Anyones thoughts?  Personally I think it's a game plan from Petzl to sell more stops and racks, Hence putting a warning on their stops to not use them above (or below!)100 metres.
 

bograt

Active member
Its to do with the volume of heat conducting metal in contact with the rope, the theory is that a rack, with all that ally, dissipates the friction heat into the atmosphere almost as fast it builds up, other devices (Stop, Fig8, etc.) do not have the surface area vs. friction faces to do this, therefore if you stop on the rope towards the bottom, (when this heat has built up), you risk damaging the rope.
Not too bad you might think, the damage is at the bottom, but after the rope has been taken out of the bag, washed and re-bagged, the damaged section might be at the top!! :confused: :confused:
 

McMole

New member
You can adjust friction on a rack by removing/separating the bars. On a Stop with a long heavy rope below you you have to lift the rope to get moving. Of course if you are first down and the rope is feeding out of a rope bag swinging from your harness then no problem - or not that one anyway! If the rope is running with water then heat isn't a problem with either device.
 

bograt

Active member
For some reason, modern cavers seem to prefer rigging out of the way  of water, 'can't understand why!  ;)
 

ianball11

Active member
When you use a Stop for a 100m descent, do you depress the handle as much at -1m as you do at -99m?  If you do, then as long as you descend at a steady 1mps on wet rope I think its fine, but dry rope, hand tire or too fast and you risk melting the sheath.

In this situation I krab out the autolock so I cant' tire on the handle.
 

Amy

New member
1) Heat dissipation - the stop heats up verrrry quickly if you ever use a rack you'll for sure note the difference, a rack is much better equipped for this so you don't glaze or burn through your rope (or your hand!) due to the surface area - there is much more material to absorb and dissipate the heat and the rope doesn't follow nearly as torturous of a path.
2) Really want to squeeze a handle that long? :p Dang my hand hurts and cramps on 100ft/30m with a stop!
3) Variable friction control, depending as to the type of rope, dirt/moisture/etc all add weight and make the rappel tougher, you could be dealing with up to 10 pounds  (4.5kg) of weight per 100ft/30m of rope. The difference in friction at the top vs bottom with such a change of weight, is huge. A rack is meant to handle these changes smoothly, effortlessly, and safely. You never need to feed rope, you never speed up too fast (assuming proper handling of the rack, but it is specifically designed for this!)
4) Eventually you get to the point where you can't even physically rig in a stop, or move at the top at all even if you get it rigged in, as the rope weight increases. I hear some folks with stops deal with this by using it in C configuration....now I guess I could be missing something here but that seems dang dangerous! We make long 24" specialty racks for long drops for a reason, it's the only way to get it rigged on, and moving, when you are dealing with that kind of weight like El Cap, a vertical half mile which gives about 200 pounds (90kg) weight to start with. Extreme example but gets you thinking.

If you are worried about "what if a rock falls and hits me and knocks me unconcious, a rack won't stop me like a stop!" we have solved this for long time, French Wrap (I think it perhaps has the name there of "Autobloc", a prussik loop wrapped around the rope typically 4 times spiraling upwards from a carabiner on the seat harness and then after the 4th complete spiral hooking back into the carabiner). In fact, on long rappels the rope weight is too much to physically manage a lock-off, and the FrenchWrap is how you stop to lock off!

For versatility, heat dissipation, ability to handle long drops up to a half vertical mile plus, racks win hands down.

If you want training in long single-pitch drops...welcome to come to TAG, we seemed to get Josh addicted while he was here, and our racks are wayyyy better than the short 5bar petzl ones. If you hate racks, and have only used those or similar, come here use a standard 14" with a hyperbar. Locking off and on-rope manovers are a breeze, and with training it will handle up to about 1000ft, although once you get up to 600+ feet jumping to an 18" frame makes your life easier (I prefer starting and staying on at least 5 bars, minimum to be safe is 4 bars).

A video I made of Whitesides last month (~700ft freehang rappel, training for Golondrinas which is over 1000ft!) shows my rack and French Wrap. When I'm stopped to video, I'm sitting on my French Wrap, the QAS is simply there as a backup safety since I'm just chilling hanging out.
VBATS Rappel at Whitesides, August 18, 2012

tl/dr: Long rope rappels are a totally different animal from all this alpine-style srt, requiring completely separate skillset and experience.
 

ianball11

Active member
Do you have shares in non-petzl rack companies Amy?

I would say that most caves in Britain don't contain a 100m single pitch.  Those with that sort of height would often feature a rebelay or too with the Alpine rigging style, so not often a 100m of rope to be lifted to get into a descender.

800m vertical in one pitch! Blimey that's a big hole!  The stretch at the bottom must be impressive!




 

darwen dave

New member
Having just got back from abseiling down Malham Cove I now have first hand experience of an 80m pitch on a stop.

First problem is the weight of the rope. It won't run freely through the stop and has to be fed through for a while.

Can't say I had any of Dunc's cramp, but I did find my grip weakening a bit a couple of times.

The heat issue is a major one, There was a smell of hot paint in the air when I got to the bottom.

I don't think I'd do it again on a stop, a rack would be a better bet.
 

dunc

New member
darwen dave said:
Can't say I had any of Dunc's cramp, but I did find my grip weakening a bit a couple of times.
My most recent experience was ~110m, no idea of rope thickness (greater than 10mm I'd guess at, maybe 11?), luckily the wet spell prior to the trip meant the shaft had a nice shower of water dropping down it, which helped the heat issue. To be honest I'd not done much significant SRT work for, ooh, ages, so probably noticed my right arm aching more than it should have done..

The people on racks made noticably quicker descents than those on Stops!
 

jonnyrocketboots

New member
Petzls official stance, With thanks from Mike Robinson@Petzl:

Hello Scott,

Thank you for your email. I think there has been a little confusion here. The technical instructions state the stop should not be used for descents of more than 100m in a rescue evacuation only. This is a requirement of the EN341 standard and it is due to potential heat build-up. Please see the excerpt below;

8. Rescue evacuation - EN 341
class A (1997)
Authorized rope diameter: 10-11 mm (EN 1891 static or semi-static
rope, or EN 892 dynamic rope).
Maximum descent height: 100 m.
Normal working load: 30-150 kg
Loads greater than 150 kg are not recommended due to possible
high impact forces on other elements of the system.
8A. Rescue evacuation from a fixed anchor-point
Device on the anchor: the braking side of the rope must be redirected
through a braking carabiner.
8B. Rescue evacuation from the harness
Device on the harness: Make sure you are well-braced, attached to an
anchor with a lanyard, and use a braking carabiner.

For normal descent there is no set limit of how far you can descend but obviously you need to be aware that heat will build up due to friction this is down too many factors; how far and how fast you descend, the diameter of the rope, if the rope is dry or wet, the weight of the operator etc. It is important to bear this in mind and maintain control during descents to help prevent heat build-up.

I hope this has gone some way to answering your query.

Thank you.

Yours,

Mike

Mike Robinson
Customer Services Manager

Lyon Equipment Ltd
DD      0044 (0)15396 26261
Main    0044 (0)15396 24040
Fax    0044 (0)15396 24805
www.lyon.co.uk

Please Note that we will be closed on 12 October 2012 as we are moving from Dent to our new Head Office Premises, our new address will be as follows:

Lyon Equipment Limited
Junction 38, M6
Tebay
Cumbria
CA10 3SS

015396 24040

Pretty much summed up what you guys have mentioned so thanks to all.  No mention of Duncs' Cramp tho...... Strange that!!
 

Burt

New member
would anyone realistically abseil on a longer rope than 100m? Apart from the weight, the bounce factor even on static rope would be huge over that distance. Surely you'd rig a rebelay somewhere, thus giving kit the chance to cool off?
 

paul

Moderator
Burt said:
would anyone realistically abseil on a longer rope than 100m? Apart from the weight, the bounce factor even on static rope would be huge over that distance. Surely you'd rig a rebelay somewhere, thus giving kit the chance to cool off?

Here's one pitch which you would probably use a rope longer than 100 metres and not much chance of a rebelay...
 

David Rose

Active member
The choice is not only between Stops and racks. The simplest, lightest and most effective descender in my view is the humble Petzl Simple. When I was active in the Picos in the 80s, that's what I always used. Then after a long gap I came back to deep caving in 2009 with the Oxford expedition to La Texa, well over 1,000 metres deep. I bought a Stop and found it a total pain, literally as well as metaphorically: my right hand ached afterwards for weeks. For the expos I went on in 2011 and this year I went back to the Simple. Bliss. Smooth, controllable abseils and easy rebelay changeovers every time. If you're drilling or otherwise rigging, the double lock can be applied instantly and will never shift an inch. For longer drops and tougher use, I would recommend a steel krab as the braking krab. That will last a very long time.
 
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