Public, Cavers, Responsible Cavers

[cap n chris]

Access is generally organised (to secure sites) via Access Control Bodies, whose primary concern is conservation of the cave, then secondarily, facilitating visits for interested parties. IPs may include led groups and some ACBs deny access to these, citing the primary reason above (separate debate).

However, we now live in more modern times, where access is generally being argued as needful for any/all members of the public (e.g. CRoW), many of whom will include Cavers, and handsful of Responsible Cavers. RCs have been previously defined by BCA (pers. comm. BCA Secretary, Damian Weare) as including BCA Award Holders. RCs probably also can be argued to be those with a proven conservation pedigree. Cavers, as a group, have been debated elsewhere (on this forum) to be a self-selected, self-defined body, namely anyone who calls themselves a caver is a caver. You don't even need a helmet to be a caver. It is interesting to note that many RCs are denied access by ACBs (another separate debate).

Here's a video of some cavers in Cheddar Gorge:

https://youtu.be/ZqTSSwIuQdc?t=2m10s

Obviously they're "proper cavers" because they have vertical skills (apart from rigging, which isn't their forte), in the same category as the fine chaps who descended and exited Bar Pot and got to GG's main chamber where they could scratch their names on the wall.

 

[Groundhog]

Thanks for the vid Chris. I learned a lot. No need for expensive lights. Just throw glow sticks ahead of you.
No need for gear either. You just need a few bits of string.
I noticed his mate said "good luck" as he set off down the pitch. I think he will need it.

 

[rhychydwr1]

Now I know what is at the bottom of White Spot Cave.  Thanks folks, another cave ticked off.

 

[2xw]

Your point being that we should have a more standardised system, no doubt run by those with qualifications, and involving considerable cost? Or what is it?

I should think it likely that "irresponsible" cavers will do irresponsible things regardless of any system put in place - already disregarding the ACBs as they do.

 

[mikem]

They've obviously been watching The Descent, but couldn't afford real flares...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih9UjEFr7Yw

Mike

 

[Simon Wilson]

Chris, you make some random comments about controlling access to caves and then link to a video. I guess you are trying to make a point but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

If the point is that the entrance should be blocked to stop people going in then why?

People seem to have a natural tendency to seek out adventure and why would you want to prevent them? Surely it is a good thing. It is impossible to insulate people from all danger. If you started to try to keep people away from all dangerous places where would it end? You would have to put fences along all roads, all cliffs, all water, cut down every tree and on and on. Either something like that or employ millions of wardens to watch everybody and make sure they didn't do anything dangerous. It would be simpler to put everybody in secure care homes.

 

[mrodoc]

This is more about people being rather silly. People have always done silly things and you cannot regulate against this. When I started caving we bought a copy of Caves of Mendip and started at EC working up.  50 years ago there were people doing what these guys do. it is not new. The only thing now is that they just make themselves look like prats to a wider audience. More fool them I say.

 

[Ship-badger]

You're right Doc; thank God I didn't have a gopro when I started caving.

Thank God I don't have one now.

 

[andrewmcleod]

The very idea of an 'access controlling body' is almost blasphemous in climbing, where the attitude is very much one of personal responsibility...

 

[droid]

The very idea of an 'access controlling body' is almost blasphemous in climbing, where the attitude is very much one of personal responsibility...

So?

 

[cap n chris]

The very idea of an 'access controlling body' is almost blasphemous in climbing, where the attitude is very much one of personal responsibility...

Cheddar Gorge has had one for over a decade, IIRC.

 

[cap n chris]

In response to some of the earlier comments, this thread can probably best be summed up as: there is good caving and bad caving, what we need is more good caving. RCs/instructed groups fall into the good caving category: it's a shame some ACBs don't acknowledge this.

 

[Simon Wilson]

And what they did looked like good caving because they were enjoying themselves without doing anybody any harm. But it also didn't look like good caving because they were in what looked like a crotty little mine full of rubbish.

They should be treated in exactly the same way as most people thought the Bar Pot adventurers should have been treated. Please send them up north where they will be given a more friendly reception than you are giving them.

Chris, it's a shame you bang on about your obsessive desire to be in control of access to caves combined with your mercenary attitude to exploiting caves for your own financial benefit. Are you a responsible caver? I think not.

 

[MJenkinson]

I sense the post is more a lament that commercial groups are excluded under some access agreements, even though they are responsible cavers, yet people like in the video can get access? I think...which is a fair point.

Whether they should be able to exploit the resource for commercial gain without the landowner getting a slice is a different matter.

 

[JohnS]

In a case like this