David Rose said:Graham, in the interests of transparency and an informed debate, it would be very useful if you would make the materials you mention widely available too. Will you ask Chris to put them on the website?
TheBitterEnd said:... the barrack room lawyers of this forum (and their much vaunted citations to things they conveniently can't post on a public forum).
What are people able to do on CROW access land?
CROW gives the public the right of access on foot, which includes activities like walking, sightseeing, bird watching, picnicking, climbing and running.
High-impact activities, like cycling, fishing, horse riding, camping or driving a vehicle are not permitted under CROW. However, people can carry out these activities if they have done so with your permission or if activities are a local tradition.
Jackalpup said:A Huge thank you to David, Dinah, Tim, Bob, Jenny and all the others that have worked hard for the benefit of ALL cavers.
I hope the BCA now embrace this position and act in our best interests.
Thank you
Ian
RobinGriffiths said:This Defra guideline document places the emphasis more on low/high impact classification rather than the open air one.
https://www.gov.uk/public-rights-of-way-rights-and-responsibilities#public-rights-of-way
What are people able to do on CROW access land?
CROW gives the public the right of access on foot, which includes activities like walking, sightseeing, bird watching, picnicking, climbing and running.
High-impact activities, like cycling, fishing, horse riding, camping or driving a vehicle are not permitted under CROW. However, people can carry out these activities if they have done so with your permission or if activities are a local tradition.
Jackalpup said:A Huge thank you to David, Dinah, Tim, Bob, Jenny and all the others that have worked hard for the benefit of ALL cavers.
I hope the BCA now embrace this position and act in our best interests.
Thank you
Ian
graham said:caving was not included in the act appertaining to England and Wales because NCA (as was) actively lobbied at the time for it to be excluded. I know this because I attended some of the relevant meetings when the then NCA C&A Officer was unable to do so himself. Now I know that some, including Jenny Potts, have recently been trying to re-write this inconvenient piece of history but I am afraid it is true. I was there. I am not the only one.
bograt said:YUP!, strange how selective memory works innit?, like what happened to NCA shortly after this period ----?
Badlad said:The seven page opinion clearly gives weight to that which was considered important to the legal question in hand.
graham said:RobinGriffiths said:This Defra guideline document places the emphasis more on low/high impact classification rather than the open air one.
https://www.gov.uk/public-rights-of-way-rights-and-responsibilities#public-rights-of-way
What are people able to do on CROW access land?
CROW gives the public the right of access on foot, which includes activities like walking, sightseeing, bird watching, picnicking, climbing and running.
High-impact activities, like cycling, fishing, horse riding, camping or driving a vehicle are not permitted under CROW. However, people can carry out these activities if they have done so with your permission or if activities are a local tradition.
Interesting find, thank you. Caving is, of course a pretty damned high impact activity in a lot of places. Like, say, Easter Grotto.
graham said:TheBitterEnd said:... the barrack room lawyers of this forum (and their much vaunted citations to things they conveniently can't post on a public forum).
I bet that's aimed at me.
Thing is I quoted what DEFRA have said & I wasn't believed.
So ask them yourself. :icon_321:
Rhys said:graham said:TheBitterEnd said:... the barrack room lawyers of this forum (and their much vaunted citations to things they conveniently can't post on a public forum).
I bet that's aimed at me.
Thing is I quoted what DEFRA have said & I wasn't believed.
So ask them yourself. :icon_321:
I could go and ask DEFRA, but you'd probably argue that I hadn't asked the right questions. I look forward to reading the information that your questions gained.
Rhys
Below is a definitive QA on caves and CRoW ? this set of QAs have also been considered by Defra.
The open access rights under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 are for ?open air recreation? ? see section 2(1). For that reason, even where land is shown on the CROW maps, the legislation did not in our view create any new public rights to use cave systems beneath or within the mapped land.
? Do Caves qualify as mapped open country as defined under CROW?
? No, except possibly some large open caves on the side of mountains etc. In such cases the experience may remain essentially an open air one, depending on the configuration of the cave.
? How does CROW apply to exploring natural underground voids?
? It does not.
? Do Cavers have a right to explore natural caves within Open Access Land?
? See above. This does not prevent cavers (whether land is CROW-mapped or not) continuing to use particular cave systems, for example where this has been traditional, so long as the landowner continues to tolerate this or has given specific permission to do so.
? What right do Commercial Cave Instructors have to access caves within CROW land with paid for caving training groups?
? None, but see the previous answer.
So in our view these answers are definitive on the subject, though of course in the end interpretation of legislation is a matter for the courts: