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Radon Gas in Caves Is there any Epidemiology within Cavers and Miners?

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
Les W said:
One of the reasons why radon is dangerous is its relatively short half life (Radon 222 has a half life of around 4 days and some of its daughters a have half lives that are very short (Polonium 218 has a half life of about 3 minutes so there is a chance it will decay whilst in your lungs, Polonium 214 has a half life of 164 micro seconds or 0.000164 seconds, so it is pretty much guaranteed that if this isotope of polonium is present in your lungs (by the decay of Radon 222) then it will decay whilst still in close contact with lung tissue. It is also very energetic so the decay will cause quite a bit of damage)

But it is not the whole story.  Polonium 210 is far more significant in radioactive impact terms of Sv per Bq but has a half life of 138 days.  Also most of the radon daughter products will be attached to other dust particles and thus have a very different behaviour in the lungs, assuming it gets there.  If only it were simple.
 

AndyF

New member
Les W said:
One of the reasons why radon is dangerous....

I think the whole point is that there is no evidence that it IS dangerous.... It's something that has now gone into folklore without proper evidence.

The evidence seems to be lost in the background noise of other ailments suchas smoking and dust inhalation (for miners), suggesting to me the the risk is minimal at worst.

The papers I've looked at have been based on poor science and bad maths, and I haven't seen any demonstratable link established between workplace/home radon exposure and health. I stress the word "demonstratable" because obviously high radon exposure would be bad.

The Japanese case that triggered this is odd. Odd becase it hasn't happened since and hadnt happened before. Just possible it was a nuclear industry cover-up (wouldn't be the first) and wasn't related to radon at all. Might do some background reading on that case...


 
C

Clive G

Guest
AndyF said:
Les W said:
One of the reasons why radon is dangerous....

I think the whole point is that there is no evidence that it IS dangerous.... It's something that has now gone into folklore without proper evidence.

. . .

The papers I've looked at have been based on poor science and bad maths, and I haven't seen any demonstratable link established between workplace/home radon exposure and health. I stress the word "demonstratable" because obviously high radon exposure would be bad.

. . .


Another factor which needs to be taken into account is how accurate and reliable are the 'measurements' of radon levels in caves with which we're being presented?

In the case of the recent Llangattock caves results a startling factor stands out: the results previously obtained in Eglwys Faen, on more than one occasion, are appreciably lower than those reported for the current survey. This begs the question: where is the 'control'?

All instrumentation is subject to variation in performance depending on the prevailing circumstances at the time of use. When, for example, cavers carry out a cave survey using a magnetic compass for measuring bearings, the equipment needs to be calibrated at the start of the caving trip. A bearing is taken from a known point to a distant landscape feature and the resulting reading used to compute a 'correction factor'. This 'correction factor' relates to variations in the magnetic pole and the manner in which the compass is read by different individual surveyors.

In the case of measuring radon levels: how good are the detectors at responding accurately to levels of radon present and how critical is the duration of exposure of each detector to the environment under test? Have the detectors been contaminated between the point of manufacture and being set up in the cave? Do the detectors each have a unique serial number providing their 'batch no.', date and time of manufacture? Have the people who are carrying out the placements and readings been screened for radon? Have the detectors been contaminated between the cave and laboratory where the analysis of radon levels is performed?

A control in the case of the Llangattock caves, where 25 readings have been taken in separate locations underground, would perhaps be a minimum of 3 and preferably 5 surface locations in buildings subject to the same rainfall catchment as the caves? In each building one detector should be placed in as low and unventilated position as possible to produce a 'maximum' and another in a well-ventilated upstairs room to produce a 'minimum'. These detectors should be placed by the same person who is placing the detectors for the same period in the caves.

Such a control would help provide better evidence as to whether the readings taken underground are reliable or anomalous.

It appears that it is not too late for consideration to be given to incorporating a satisfactory control and also to place additional detectors in eg. Erse Passage and Midnight Passage, as previously suggested, for the present radon measurements being carried out in the caves. If presented with the argument that it is too late to be coming up with such suggestions, then I'll hasten to add that the first I heard of the experimentation being carried out in the Llangattock caves was that some very high readings had been obtained and then the report provided by the latest issue of Descent landed on the floor in my hall.

 

Ship-badger

Member
AndyF said:
I think the whole point is that there is no evidence that it IS dangerous....

obviously high radon exposure would be bad.

If there is no evidence that it is dangerous, why would high exposure be bad. You would appear to be contradicting yourself here.
 

AndyF

New member
Ship-badger said:
AndyF said:
I think the whole point is that there is no evidence that it IS dangerous....

obviously high radon exposure would be bad.

If there is no evidence that it is dangerous, why would high exposure be bad. You would appear to be contradicting yourself here.

Well almost anything "radioactive " is "bad" in suffucient quantity, and Radon being a gas would suffocate you in high enugh concentration apart from anything else.

What I meant was that there is no evidence that the levels of radon exposure found in life or caving or Cornish houses present a measurable risk to health. I would only describe something as "dangerous" if it does present a quanitifiable risk.

The mini industry that was created putting radon vents in buildings made a lot of cash out of promoting a "risk" that does not seem to stand up to scrutiny. A lot of latter day "snake oil" IMHO






 

Hatstand

New member
AndyF said:
The mini industry that was created putting radon vents in buildings made a lot of cash out of promoting a "risk" that does not seem to stand up to scrutiny. A lot of latter day "snake oil" IMHO

A bit like energy efficient lamps and loft insulation you mean???  :doubt:

:alien:
 

AndyF

New member
Hatstand said:
AndyF said:
The mini industry that was created putting radon vents in buildings made a lot of cash out of promoting a "risk" that does not seem to stand up to scrutiny. A lot of latter day "snake oil" IMHO

A bit like energy efficient lamps and loft insulation you mean???  :doubt:

:alien:

..really thinking more like "Bird Flu" vaccine
 

menacer

Active member
AndyF said:
Well almost anything "radioactive " is "bad" in suffucient quantity, and Radon being a gas would suffocate you in high enugh concentration apart from anything else.



Just like CO2 on the air we breathe, in sufficient quantities, would be bad for you ....
 

graham

New member
AndyF said:
I would only describe something as "dangerous" if it does present a quantifiable risk.

It may be that the mathematicians amongst us would disagree, but I am not certain that every risk can actually be easily quantified.
 

graham

New member
AndyF said:
The mini industry that was created putting radon vents in buildings made a lot of cash out of promoting a "risk" that does not seem to stand up to scrutiny. A lot of latter day "snake oil" IMHO

What about the mini industry that made quite a bit of cash by advising show cave owners to install expensive venting systems and, on the way, put the wind up a number of other cave owners and also cave leaders?
 
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