Restoring upland habitats

[JasonC]

At the time of the last floods in places like Hebden Bridge, it was suggested that run-off had been exacerbated by land management practices of grouse moors (rather than sheep grazing) - in particular heather burning.
As I understood it, the idea was that if heather and scrub were allowed to regrow, more water would be soaked up, rain would take longer to reach the valleys and flooding would be reduced - but at the cost to the grouse and their 'owners'.

If this is true (and I'm only reporting what I heard, not what I know), then Simon is up against a very powerful and well-funded lobby group (ie the huntin' n' shootin' business) so I wouldn't count on Brexit helping at all.

The profits from this business, by the way, largely go to trusts held in offshore tax havens, so don't (on the whole) benefit local upland economies, as is often claimed.

 

[Simon Wilson]

At the time of the last floods in places like Hebden Bridge, it was suggested that run-off had been exacerbated by land management practices of grouse moors (rather than sheep grazing) - in particular heather burning.
As I understood it, the idea was that if heather and scrub were allowed to regrow, more water would be soaked up, rain would take longer to reach the valleys and flooding would be reduced - but at the cost to the grouse and their 'owners'.

If this is true (and I'm only reporting what I heard, not what I know), then Simon is up against a very powerful and well-funded lobby group (ie the huntin' n' shootin' business) so I wouldn't count on Brexit helping at all.

The profits from this business, by the way, largely go to trusts held in offshore tax havens, so don't (on the whole) benefit local upland economies, as is often claimed.

The drainage basins that feed the rivers that flow through Hebden Bridge are made up of a high proportion of grouse moors and the owner of the biggest one has been in dispute with various parts of DEFRA and the RSPB over his repeated breaking of regulations. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/oct/15/rspb-eu-moor-controversy

These moors are unenclosed and are a mix of heath and grassland which is grazed as part of the management. As I said before this is a highly complex issue and I am one of the people who thinks that the Pennine upland are far to valuable to be left in the hands of unscrupulous 'squires'. Unfortunately the present massive lurch to the right politically and the connected leaving of the EU will probably mean that landowners have more freedom to exploit the uplands to their own ends. We don't know what is going to happen but I think environmentalists might be very much dismayed.

 

[droid]

Aaaaah.....so it's 'political'.....

I'm out of this.

 

[Fulk]

Sorry Droid . . . it's land management; of course it's political!

 

[bograt]

Sorry Droid . . . it's land management; of course it's political!

NO!!, I like to think I manage my land, The soil and livestock don't care about what happens down in the place that has never seen grass, we will press on regardless.
The 'powers that be' have occasionally asked us for advice, politicians are frequently asked to 'do something', they immediately refer to their 'civil' servants, who think up silly rules that the guy up on the hill knows cannot work, NFU and CLA are more intent upon the whole farming scene than focusing on the problems of upland farmers, 

By some quirk of geography, the foothills of Kinder fall within the East Midlands ( including Northamptonshire, lincolnshire, Warickshire--etc..)  ??, I was once called to a conference somewhere in South Notts. (or north Lincs, ), and the controlling point of discussion was  the growing of carrots out of season, this taught me a lot----, the downland  farmers could not care less about their upland cousins, unless they are paying for 'downland grazing'. This is not politics, this is just farmers wanting to make a living.

 

[Fulk]

I don't doubt what you say, bograt, but in the overall scheme of things I strongly suspect that upland management in Britain depends on the policies of who's in power ? i.e. it's political.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Should the government, for instance, heed established environment groups like the WWF and RSPB, and continue to plough cash into schemes protecting the current list of farmland species. Or should it take the radical re-wilding approach proposed by campaigners like George Monbiot, and allow nature to reclaim the heavily-subsidised uplands?    I'm with George.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36809570

 

[bograt]

I don't doubt what you say, bograt, but in the overall scheme of things I strongly suspect that upland management in Britain depends on the policies of who's in power ? i.e. it's political.

The policies and advice may be political, just to please the electorate, but the execution is totally different, as an East Midland hill farmer, I have often been asked for guidance in interpreting government (and EU) policy into practice by the people who have the job of enforcing it.

 

[bograt]

Should the government, for instance, heed established environment groups like the WWF and RSPB, and continue to plough cash into schemes protecting the current list of farmland species. Or should it take the radical re-wilding approach proposed by campaigners like George Monbiot, and allow nature to reclaim the heavily-subsidised uplands?    I'm with George.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36809570

Of course, you do realise that re-wilding will mean an increase in bracken and gorse? gorse thickets will make areas inaccessible and bracken spoors are thought to be carcinogenic---

The WWF and the RSPB may be well established organisations, but I have never been asked for guidance by either of them, their particular policies seem to be opposed in certain areas, one wants to preserve and encourage badgers and other predators, whilst the other wants to protect birds (particularly ground nesters), their main prey--.

The theory of re-wilding may look attractive on paper, but the situation should be looked at holistically, in order for it to be viable and sustainable, population levels must fall to pre-enclosure numbers - is this likely to happen?, the alternative is to import lots more food to feed our burgeoning masses, does that sound environmentally friendly? 

 

[Simon Wilson]

Can you offer a fully thought-through transition from sheep farming and shooting to an alternative model for the rural economy, one in which rural residents still have a secure place in a re-wilded countryside? Can you understand people?s aversion to risking this?

I certainly can understand people?s concerns. But there is going to be a major transition in the countryside before long, with or without rewilding, when farm subsidies are either scrapped or greatly reduced, as they inevitably will be. When essential public services are being cut, giving ?55 billion a year from the public purse across the EU to landowners, while helping to destroy both human communities and ecological resilience is surely as unsustainable politically as it is environmentally. So what are farmers whose livelihood is sustained only as a result of farm subsidies going to do?

I have two proposals. The first is that we start campaigning for the retention of some subsidies, whose purpose would be changed to that of ecological restoration and the support of communities. Landowners and tenants would be paid to restore watersheds, woodlands, rivers and wildlife. It?s hard to see how else continued subsidies could remain publicly acceptable. Rewilding could be a way out for struggling rural communities.

http://www.monbiot.com/2015/12/17/walk-on-the-wild-side/

http://www.rewildingbritain.org.uk/rewilding/rewilding-projects/wild-ennerdale

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Sorry Bograt, East Midlands hill farmer sounds like you're overlooking Vale of Belvoir, but I assume you are more Penniney.

 

[bograt]

Sorry Bograt, East Midlands hill farmer sounds like you're overlooking Vale of Belvoir, but I assume you are more Penniney.

Upland or hill farms are defined by being in a 'Less Favoured Area (LFA);

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Ok thanks. So quite a bit in East Mindlands then!

 

[bograt]

Only the Derbyshire Peak District, when it comes to representation, we have the prairie farmers of Northants and Lincolnshire to contend with--.

 

[Simon Wilson]

The word 'upland' is used as part of many different landscape classifications and without further definition the word 'upland' is rather vague. The sort of upland habitats I was referring to in the heading of this thread the sort of land which is typically managed as grouse moors or common grazing, often Access Land and is probably best defined as below.

There is no statutory definition of ?uplands?, but it is generally accepted to refer to areas of mountain, moor and heath, high ground above the upper limits of enclosed farmland, largely covered by dry and wet dwarf shrub heath species and rough grassland.                     https://www.gov.uk/guidance/hill-farming

 

[droid]

If you has put that in your first post it would have saved me a sh!tload of typing....

Main reason for moor burning is to reduce the height of the heather to that where grouse can graze new shoots. It also makes it easier to walk through. Left to it's own devices heather will grow to a metre or more. Technically it's a sub-shrub. So 'access' would be very strenuous.....

 

[Simon Wilson]

"Heather burning on moorland, which is practised predominantly to support red grouse populations for gun sports, has significant negative impacts on peat hydrology, peat chemistry and physical properties, river water chemistry and river ecology."    http://www.wateratleeds.org/fileadmin/documents/water_at_leeds/Ember_report.pdf

 

[droid]

Entirely agree. And I DO understand the many other points made in the abstract.

 

[jasonbirder]

Measures to 'improve habitat' have been made here (on the upland farm). and the Badgers have wiped out the Little Owls, ....the re-introduction of Buzzards is also an issue.

That's quite a bol statement...given badgers aren't exactly renowned tree climbers and Little Owls nest in holes in Trees...if you find the re-introduction of Buzzards to be an Issue...you can sleep easy, they never have been...nor ever will be..so you can sleep easy there!

 

[bograt]

Measures to 'improve habitat' have been made here (on the upland farm). and the Badgers have wiped out the Little Owls, ....the re-introduction of Buzzards is also an issue.

That's quite a bol statement...given badgers aren't exactly renowned tree climbers and Little Owls nest in holes in Trees...if you find the re-introduction of Buzzards to be an Issue...you can sleep easy, they never have been...nor ever will be..so you can sleep easy there!

Quote;

"The nesting location varies with habitat, nests being found in holes in trees, in cliffs, quarries, walls, old buildings, river banks and rabbit burrows."

Round here they used to prefer burrows----;.

Quote;
"Buzzards are a success story ? red kites are also recolonising large areas of England thanks to reintroduction projects and tough legislation on killing birds of prey."


But I bow to your obviously superior knowledge  :bow: :bow: :bow:, I only live with them on a daily basis----...